Re-Powering The Deuce With A 5-Ton LDS-465-1A Engine

[SasquatchSanta]

This subject has probably been covered before but if so I couldn't find anything about it....

I'm in the process of buying a rebuilt LDS-465-1A engine. About a year ago I did some preliminary research on swapping an LDS for an LDT and everything seemed doable. Now I'm having concerns about the oil pan and dip stick.

My notes say to reverse the oil pan but I forgot to indicate whether to use the stock LDS pan or to use a reversed LDT (Deuce) pan. If I reverse the stock pan the dipstick isn't going to fit. Evidently this modification also requires changing out the oil pump. ??????

Does anyone know if the position of the LDS dip stick is going to cause firewall clearance problems ?????

Given that the starter is on the opposite side on the 5-Ton (LDS), I'm going to use my existing Deuce bell housing and Deuce clutch assembly. Does anyone know if the LDS-465-A1 and the LDT-465-1C starters will interchange ????

The specs indicate the LDS-465-1A requires 450 CFM of air where the LDT-465-1C only requires 405. Given my application (low weight, low load bobbed (hobby) deuce) I hope to be able to get away with the standard 405 CMF Deuce air breather assembly. Any comments ????

Any general comments on putting the 5-ton LDS-465-1-A in a deuce would be appreciated.

Also .... I noticed there is an LDS-465-1 and an LDS-465-1A. Is there inherently wrong with the LDS-465-1A?

 

[TacticalTruck]

I've done it a couple times. The oil pan is the same between the two motors, just mounted in reverse BUT you will need to use the oil pick-up tubes off the LDT to be able to reverse the pan on the LDS. Move the dip stick tube from the LDS to the LDT position. The block is set up for both, just remove the pipe plug and put it in the hole where the dip stick was. The starters interchange...sort-a. You will need to rotate the nose of the LDS starter to the proper angle to match the LDT. I've been running the stock air cleaner. It might run stronger/cooler with the LDS air cleaner but probably not necessary in your application. Clean your radiator and watch your coolant temp while loaded. The 1A might be better if it is the later TD (thick deck) block. None of this applies if you have a LDS-465-2 as Bjorn will attest.
Jeff

 

[M1075]

Now that answer is a perfect example of knowledge sharing on the forum. Nice work Jeff.

 

[gringeltaube]

Re: RE: Re-Powering The Deuce With A 5-Ton LDS-465-1A Engine

........ The starters interchange...sort-a. You will need to rotate the nose of the LDS starter to the proper angle to match the LDT......

see: http://www.steelsoldiers.com/index....viewtopic&t=11103&highlight=multifuel+starter

 

[houdel]

Re: RE: Re-Powering The Deuce With A 5-Ton LDS-465-1A Engine

Move the dip stick tube from the LDS to the LDT position. The block is set up for both, just remove the pipe plug and put it in the hole where the dip stick was.

Jeff - Where is the LDS dipstick located? Can you provide a picture? Do the LDT blocks have the pipe plug in the LDS location? I'm trying to find an oil pickup point for a prelubricator, but would prefer to NOT run an adapter through the oil pan.

 

[gringeltaube]

Lee: See attached pic. This is an LDS465-1A, converted to be installed in a deuce.
The arrow points to a 1/4" plug, that's the original dipstick location for the 5ton.

You could install a pickup tube there but I think the resulting I.D. would be rather small, specially if the oil is cold.

Gerhard

 

[houdel]

gerhard - I agree a 1/4" pump supply woudn't work - probably 1/2" npt is the smallest that would provide enough oil flow. Drill and tap the indicated fitting to 1/2" npt might work, except with the oil pan reversed the pickup would be in the small sump and I don't think there would be enough oil in the small sump to fully charge the system. I'm a little confused by the angle of the photo, are we looking at the right rear of the engine? Do the LD/LDT engines have the same fitting as you show for the LDS engine? I've noticed on my LDT engine there is a boss identical to the dipstick boss about 6" forward of the dipstick. That would probably be a good location to drill and tap for a pickup as it would be over the deeper sump, thus a plentiful supply of oil. I'm not prone to installing a fitting in the side of the oil pan as Dmetalmiki has on his engine. Such a fitting would be below the engine oil level and unless it were expertly done I'd be concerned about an oil leak.

 

[cranetruck]

..... That would probably be a good location to drill and tap for a pickup as it would be over the deeper sump, thus a plentiful supply of oil. I'm not prone to installing a fitting in the side of the oil pan as Dmetalmiki has on his engine. Such a fitting would be below the engine oil level and unless it were expertly done I'd be concerned about an oil leak.

So you don't think this a good idea?

 

[yorkgulch2]

How much gain is there with this swap as far a real hill/load pulling?
It sounds like you retain the deuce radiator? Correct?

 

[houdel]

So you don't think this a good idea?

Actually, I do have a drain plug drilled and tapped to 3/8" which I will use for my quick and dirty prototype system. I just don't like plumbing any hardware into the oil pan below the oil level. Although highly unlikely, a component failure or a part getting snagged on something and breaking will result in a total dump of the engine oil. Once I get my system installed and tuned, I'll drill and tap the boss forward of the dipstick boss for an oil pickup point which won't dump my entire crankcase if something fails or is broken. Yes, I may seem a little paranoid on this point, but I'm also quite fond of failsafe, ultra reliable technology.

 

[gringeltaube]

.... I'm a little confused by the angle of the photo, are we looking at the right rear of the engine?

Yes

Do the LD/LDT engines have the same fitting as you show for the LDS engine?

Probably not. Just realized the LDS427 doesn't have it.

I've noticed on my LDT engine there is a boss identical to the dipstick boss about 6" forward of the dipstick. That would probably be a good location to drill and tap for a pickup as it would be over the deeper sump, thus a plentiful supply of oil.

I agree and would do the same!

 

[TacticalTruck]

I found a substantial power gain. I can tow bar another deuce w/o trouble. The truck also maintains speed on grade. I used to think the only difference between the LDT and LDS were the LDS have oil squirters to cool the piston skirts but Winslow said he found the squirters in a LDT-465-1D with the TD block. Now I think you can just turn up the fuel with the same results...just watch the EGT.
Jeff

 

[houdel]

TT - You raise an interesting point. The LD/LDT engines and LDS engines are very similar with the same displacement and many interchangeable parts, yet the LD/LDT engines only make 120-130 hp, while the LDS engines make about 190 hp. How do the LDS engines do that and keep EGT in a safe range? The LDS engines must have a higher fuel delivery rate to make that much power which drives up EGT, I believe they have a larger turbo producing more boost which should help lower EGT a bit. The LDS engines do have some specific heavier duty internal components, but what is different to produce that much power and how do they keep EGT at a safe operating level?

 

[m-35tom]

both engines have oil cooled pistons. the lds has passages in the pistons that the oil flows through to cool them a little better. i think you can turn the fuel up to almost 200 hp on the ldt, i have done this on all my trucks and get a boost pressure of 12 psi instead of the stock 9 psi. post turbo temp of 1200f. not afraid of hills, very good performance.

by the way didn't the 427 engines have problems and are they not marked 'TD' (thick deck) allowing for more head torque? i don't think i would want to use any engine not marked 'TD'

 

[jimk]

Lee,

Fuel settings:
LD-465-1,1C-------62 lb/hr (min) 126HP
LDT-465-1C,1D--- 64 lb/hr (min) 130HP
LDS-465-1--------- 80 lb/hr 170-185HP
(TM-9-2320-361-10 and 68' LDS Troobleshooting Manual)

The LDS uses a bigger turbo w/wastegate. I think, as you said, extra air will reduce EGT, however extra fuel is what makes boost(and raises EGT). The LDS does both, which keeps EGT under control. JimK

p.s- Sasquashsanta-Induction air flow at rated power - 550 cfm (page 11, LDS T.S. Manual)

 

[TacticalTruck]

The original LDSs used a larger turbo w/ waste gate when they first came out but I've only seen a couple of these. All the rest use the same turbo as the deuce, the C model wistler at least, with an adapter to the larger exhaust of the five ton. It is not a problem to be able to turn the LDTs up because they are in such a low state of tune to start with. After all, the LDT is only rated 10 horse over the non-turbo LD. The turbo was added to the M35A2s for emissions not power.
I've only seen one 427 in my travels. I know they had problems. I don't think even all the 465s were "TD" blocks.
Jeff

 

[jimk]

Jeff,
Those LDS's w/C+D turbo would seem to be a good candidate for a pyrometer. Any engine that deviates from box stock, too. I agree with you that these can be turned up if EGT is watched. JimK

 

[SasquatchSanta]

Tactical Truck (TT) Sez:

I've done it a couple times.... The oil pan is the same between the two motors, just mounted in reverse BUT you will need to use the oil pick-up tubes off the LDT to be able to reverse the pan on the LDS. Move the dip stick tube from the LDS to the LDT position. The block is set up for both, just remove the pipe plug and put it in the hole where the dip stick was. The starters interchange...sort-a. You will need to rotate the nose of the LDS starter to the proper angle to match the LDT. I've been running the stock air cleaner. It might run stronger/cooler with the LDS air cleaner but probably not necessary in your application. Clean your radiator and watch your coolant temp while loaded. The 1A might be better if it is the later TD (thick deck) block. None of this applies if you have a LDS-465-2 as Bjorn will attest.
Jeff

Thanks for the insight.

What has been your experience concerning increased fuel usage with the LDS over the LDT? I'm aware that the LDS is rated for something like 80 pounds of fuel per hour where the LDT is rated for something like 62 PPH BUT .... I've been told fuel consumption has a lot to do with weight. Given I'm running a bobbed deuce and have lock-out front hubs do you think I'm going to get hit hard on fuel???

I reading through the posts it sounds like I will need to use my existing M35 clutch, pressure plate and flywheel assembly???

I'm familiar with the "TD" (Thick-Deck) blocks. One would think a TD block would be even more important in the higher turbo boost LDS engine than it is in the LDT. Would you shy away from a non TD LDS engine???

 

[m-35tom]

i had the same truck that bjorn has now (ford made 8x with the highest output lds ever made, 205 hp. mine did not have a waste gate. the boost was around 14psi at 1200f. this is real close to what you can do with an ldt.

 

[m-35tom]

also as to the radiator.......... when i had the 3208 cat motor i did not even have a shrould on the rad fan and had no problem with cooling. but, i did have a good radiator that i serviced and made sure the tubes were open before i used it.