removing the governor?

[hendersond]

The REB kit would be interesting to learn about too.

 

[blizzardwarrior7]

Im thinking about calling memphis equipment this week to see exactly what was removed or changed to install the reb shifter.

Thanks for the clarification Jason.

I will have to keep my eyes open for a kit on ebay. Or perhaps you only used one of your kits and want to sell the other one?

Thanks for not participating Rick, yet you still felt the need to post something didnt you? Even if it was just to say that you werent going to post anything.

 

[hendersond]

Sorry, I used one and plan to keep the other for the next carb I find. I like to have a spare. Maybe you wanna get rid of yours...

 

[blizzardwarrior7]

I do want to get rid of my carb, but Id like to first get the engine running correctly first before swapping in anything else...Another question, if I were to get another carb, what would I do with the vacuum line that currently goes to the governor, or even the other one? I just send an email to Larry at clifford performance to see if they have any parts that would be of use to me.

 

[blizzardwarrior7]

Alright thanks for the help guys, Im going to be swapping the carb out for a weber 38-38 carb along with headers and a new intake manifold from clifford performance, supposed to be good for another 50-70 horsepower and about the same if not more torque! Henderson I will let you know when I can send you my old carb!

 

[butch atkins]

Its not a problem if you can throw cash at it to fix it,let us know how it goes,pics and all ,good luck on your project

 

[JasonS]

Alright thanks for the help guys, Im going to be swapping the carb out for a weber 38-38 carb along with headers and a new intake manifold from clifford performance, supposed to be good for another 50-70 horsepower and about the same if not more torque! Henderson I will let you know when I can send you my old carb!

Take the 50 to 70 HP with a grain of salt. A 70 HP gain would be a ~54% increase and you WILL NOT see that with any bolt on equipment on a abysmally low compression engine with limited rpm range. IMHO and experience, you are wasting your money.

Here are some 302 buildup notes. Note what he did to achieve 230 HP.

OK,I'm no pro engine builder...... the head has Chevy small block V-8 valves,1.94 intake and 1.60 exhaust.They are Manley Street flow,7 bucks each.The exhaust seats were replaced,the intakes opened up slightly ,standard hot rod stuff,any decent machine shop can do the work.The springs are Crower singles with a damper, so called Z-28 springs.To get an installed spring height of 1.700,a set of Manley lower spring cups fit right in the stock valve spring recess in the head.The slightly shorter valve stems messed up the rockerarm geometry,simple fix on a GMC,just drive down the valve contact pads,weld them in the correct position.
I got a cam reground by Colt Cams in BC Canada to my own specs,they do excellent work.Delta cams in Washington can do it as can Lazer Cams in Tenn or just about any of 100's of cam grinders if you know what ya want..The typical guys who have ready ground cams for these engines,Langdon,Clifford,Howard's,base their total valve lift on a rockerarm ratio of 1.5,but actually as measured,it's 1.4. So right off the shelf, you're loosing .020-.040 total lift and some duration.
I bought header flanges on Ebay,the guy has some Chevy 235 flanges advertised at the moment.The flange port openings were too large, probably for some wildly ported engine.It was a pain in the ass to weld in material,better to use 235 flanges and rework them to fit. Or just get a pattern from a stock manifold fange and have a fabrication shop do a set for you.At least the flanges are 3/8 stock and cheap at around 35 bucks.I got got some 1-5/8 and 1-3/4 U bends from Summit racing,cut em up,welded it all together,a 10 inch steel cutoff saw blade on a chop saw or radial arm or table saw make it easy to do square cuts or angles.I made no effort to "tune" the individual pipes as it doesn't matter on a relatively low RPM street engine.The 4 bbl intake came from Patrick's,1/2 the bucks of Clifford,using a 390 Holley 4bbl for starters.
The oil pump pick up tube is fairly small on GMC's,a reworked larger diameter Chevy small block tube with a home made pick up looks better.
This engine wasn't cheap,I do my own assembly and design,but all the machine work,Venolia pistons,valve train,a million little this and that's has cost around 3500 bucks,ouch!Even the bearings were a fight,the only readily available mains are made in Mexico Federal Moguls,took some searching to find premium Clevite 77's.
When I started building this engine, I got a lot of bogus information from from vendors and guys who supposedly are GMC experts,like a GMC is some special magicial engine.


I just completed a 302 as we speak.I used Chevy V-8 1.94 intakes and 1.60 exhaust valves,Manley hi po street valves,springs with a damper,again V-8 item. Comp cams makes a lower spring cup that fits perfect and gives a 1.700 installed spring height,perfect. The small block valves have a slightly shorter stem,ya need to correct the rocker arm geometry,easy to do.I got a cam ground of my own specifications,I highly recomend Colt Cams in BC Canada.My cam is 215 degrees duration at .050 lift,lift at the valve is .430.Remember this,the actual GMC rocker arm ratio measured by me is 1.4 not 1.5 listed by all cam makers.So, all the cams you see are short on actual valve lift by about .035 and short on duration by a few degrees.
I'm running an actual 9.3 compression ratio,Venolia pistons, I sent them a mold of the combustion chamber to design the piston.Using 1/16 compression rings,3/16 oil rings.I measured the stock 302 head combustion chambers at 121 cc's,had the head milled .040 to get the chambers to 112 cc's to keep a small 25 cc pistom dome.The pistons are installed at zero deck clearance.The rod small ends were rebushed for Chevy big block V-8 wrist pins so I wouldn't have to have custom pins made.
I searched around quite awhile to find Clevite 77 bearings,the mains have been out of production for 20 years.I didn't want to use the currently available Federal Mogul made in Mexico bearings.
Got a 390 Holley 4 bbl on a Patrick's intake and a home made set of short tube tri-y headers.
I modified the the oil pump pick up tube by using a larger diameter tube from a V-8 with a home made pick up enclosure and screen.And of course the full flow oil filter.
Should make 230 HP at 4500 rpm.

Jason,I may have overstated using "bogus",lol.Here's what I found,like I mentioned,the actual rocker arm ratio is 1.4 not 1.5,so keep that in mind when choosing a cam cause all the cam grinders think it's 1.5.I measured the lift at the lobe and at the valve with corrected rocker arm geometry.So I had a cam ground with more lobe lift to make up for it.
I also noticed the stock oil pick up tube is a smaller diameter than the pressure feed tube of the pump.Just about every other engine design has a larger pick up tube than the feed side of the oil pump.I modified a small block Chevy pick up tube,it's larger than the stock GMC item.The 90 degree fitting on the feed side of the pump is restrictive,I bored out the diameter as much as I dared, better yet would be to throw away the sharp 90 degree fitting,and use a larger radius fitting.Same goes for oil lines on a full flow filter,avoid any fittings with sharp turns.Each sharp angle fitting reduces oil pressure by a few PSI, add em all up and you loose 10 psi.You can jack up the pump relief valve spring,but that just takes more power,and may overload the drive gear and heat up the oil.
Quality bearings were another problem,I searched quite a while to find genuine Clevite 77 main sets.The only readily available bearings are Federal Mogul CP's made in Mexico.The are supposed to be a good bearing, but I wasn't satisfied with the bearing crush,the Clevites were much better.
The factory machining on this standard bore block was horrible,the bores weren't straight,the block deck wasn't parallel to the crank,but the crank bores were right on.The machinist had to mill the block at a angle to get it straight,The bore problem was solved by properly boring the cylinders on true centers.
The Crankshaft was standard and smooth,but the throws were off and the factory had cut the crank slightly undersize.I didn't want to cut the crank at all cause you loose the hardening,but I compromised with a .010 cut, and trued up the crank throw indexing as much as possible.The connecting rod bores were off as much as .010.Took care of that by rebushing the small ends for .990 Chevy big block V-8 wrist pins,offsetting the bushing bores to get all the rods the same length.
I'm not vendor bashing here, but both Arias and Ross didn't seem interested in making me pistons. Venolia was interested and asked for a head combustion chamber mold so they could build a piston to fit my specs. And they were cheaper by 100 bucks.
All these little items do add up ,makes no sense to throw money at a performance engine unless you check every item and correct any problems.I mocked up the block,crank,rods and pistons several times at the machine shop to check clearances along the way.My machinist is careful,but it's my engine,I do my own assembly,it pays to be involved during the machining process.
I did these steps on the 261 I built for the truck 7 years ago and it had excellent power and was smooth,hopefully the GMC will run as well and the 3500 bucks I spent for machining and parts will be worth it.
And the long motor myth,in my case,the GMC 302 was the same lenght from the bellhousing mounts to the front of the fan as the Chevy 261 engine that was in the truck.The motor mount holes in the front crossmember will be moved forawd only 3/4 of an inch with a slight trimming of the corssmenber for oil pan clearance.

 

[blizzardwarrior7]

Interesting, but I have a hard time beleiving that the claims from people at clifford performance are bogus, as they are pretty much the go to guys for chevy inline 6 engines. 50-70 hp doesnt seem unreasonable to me, your upgrading to a $600+ carb, upgrading to a much higherflow intake manifold, and swapping over to dual exhaust with tuned headers, if anything I can also have the head ground down to increase compression. I think this is the route I am going to go for now, because it seems fairly simple to do, maybe a good starting point, but I will save the notes above in case I decide to go farther. Thanks again.

 

[hendersond]

Whatever HP you get it is all yours! It doesn't really matter. You gotta do what you want for you. I have a friend who is dumping more money into a car than some people spend on a house. I think he's nuts. He thinks I'm nuts for putting my effort into my m211. We have to remember it is all a hobby. If you get a few more horses and a really cool sound that makes you smile, great for you! Remember someone will think you are nuts for not restoring it to stock.

I look at it this way:
If I go out and spend a $100 bill on a master cylinder I feel pretty good every time I step on the brake and it stops because I did it myself. When I spent $40 on a perfect gas can I felt guilty, but I smile every time I see it on my running board.
I went out the other day with some friends, Spent $140 on meals and drinks. I know where it went. My kidneys, liver and gastrointestinal tract did its job and then it all went down the toilet. I cannot remember some of what happened and I felt like crap the next day.

No matter what you do with your truck at least you will have something. Just let us know how it turns out.

 

[APM215]

The governor on a GMC M211, M135 ect: is connected to the distributor and transmission and will affect the shifting of the automatic transmission. Be careful when making changes.

 

[hendersond]

The governor on a GMC M211, M135 ect: is connected to the distributor and transmission and will affect the shifting of the automatic transmission. Be careful when making changes.

Ditto

I'd hate to see you have to have your passenger squeezin' away with a Mityvac hand pump just to get to second gear with that new found power!

 

[nk14zp]

Ditto

I'd hate to see you have to have your passenger squeezin' away with a Mityvac hand pump just to get to second gear with that new found power!

 

[73m819]

This thread is turning into another http://www.steelsoldiers.com/deuce/74783-good-buy.html

 

[JasonS]

Interesting, but I have a hard time beleiving that the claims from people at clifford performance are bogus, as they are pretty much the go to guys for chevy inline 6 engines. 50-70 hp doesnt seem unreasonable to me, your upgrading to a $600+ carb, upgrading to a much higherflow intake manifold, and swapping over to dual exhaust with tuned headers, if anything I can also have the head ground down to increase compression. I think this is the route I am going to go for now, because it seems fairly simple to do, maybe a good starting point, but I will save the notes above in case I decide to go farther. Thanks again.

I have had three 302 powered vehicles in my live and lived and breathed them for over a decade. It is REALLY hard to get horsepower out of GMs old engines. It doesn't matter what you spend, money does not equal horsepower. A high flow intake and exhaust do little good when you are limited to a low maximum rpm by the heavy stock pistons. You'd have to mill off 1/8" off of the head to get to ~8.3:1 and by that time, the side cover won't fit, you'll mess up your rocker arm geometry, and still have limited rpm due to the pistons. I've been there, done that, and know better. I'd cancel my order with Clifford and call Patrick Dykes at Patrick's Antique Cars and Trucks who specializes in this engine.

 

[JasonS]

To give you some numbers from "GMC Speed Manual" written by Bill Fisher (1955):

165 to 185 horsepower using: large valves, 3/4 race camshaft, dual carbs, 8.5:1 compression, and stock exhaust.

195 to 225 horsepower using: large valves, full race camshaft, three carbs, 8.5 to 9:1 compression, and cast iron headers.

215 to 236 horsepower using: large valves, fabricated rockers, super race cam, three to five carbs, 9:1 compression, adn exhaust headers.

Granted, the Weber is a better carb than available in the fifties but you are intrinsically limited by the iron (design of the engine) and it takes a lot of mods/$$ to change.

Not trying to be an a$$ but I wished someone slapped me with this information when I was young.

 

[blizzardwarrior7]

Im not worried about my transmission, as mentioned I have a reb shifter, so no linkage between tranny and the carb.

As I said Jason, thanks for the input. I still think I can get 50hp or so more out of the engine with this combo. Tom from alfa heaven has echoed what clifford performance said, although he said it would be closer to 50-60hp. All we can do is put it on and see.

 

[steelandcanvas]

What happend to the post? I thought I read somewhere you built 5 diesel trucks that all run under 11 in the quarter?

 

[JasonS]

I still think I can get 50hp or so more out of the engine with this combo. Tom from alfa heaven has echoed what clifford performance said, although he said it would be closer to 50-60hp. All we can do is put it on and see.

Neither Clifford nor Tom have dyno'ed this combination and are guessing at what kind of increase you will get. I posted REAL numbers and the kind of increase you are expecting required more than an intake/exhaust swap. Patrick Dykes will tell you that you the same thing that he told me many years ago regarding my similar cludge: "plumbers nightmare". You are better off spending the cash elsewhere.

 

[rickf]

He is not listening to you guys and he is not going to listen. He wants to spend money, period. He obviously has it to spend. He does not have a clue as to how to build in performance as is obvious by his descriptions of what he will do to get power. Go back to the "Is this a good deal" post and you will see that he is not looking for answers, he just wants attention.
Close the post, it is a waste of everyones time. He is not listening to good advise.

 

[blizzardwarrior7]

What happend to the post? I thought I read somewhere you built 5 diesel trucks that all run under 11 in the quarter?

I have, chekout my trucks on the dieselstop.com or powerstroke.org same username just felt like it was better to not mention it in the end.


Jason I did not realize neither of them have dynoed it, how can you be so sure? I know tom has dynoed these trucks before, probably not this exact combination though I suppose. The info you have supplyed is good, its just alot deeper than I'm interested in going at the moment. That's why I'm choosing to go with more bolt on parts. If im not satisfied with them perhaps I will venture deeper.