AN/ARC186
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Great write up on a very well executed project!
I see power steering in my future.
I see power steering in my future.
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Ross HF54 Power Steering in my Deuce
- Thread starter Seth_O
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seth in your first post you meant to say 'box' not 'pump'! most will understand, but some may wonder.
on the vickers pump, not all fittings are pipe thread. the suction is 3/4 and the 'vent' or 'bypass' is 1/4 both pipe thread.
the pressure port is #8 SAE and uses an o ring to seal. (straight thread)
the 1/4 fitting was thought to be needed if you were going to hold the pump at max pressure and no flow for more than 15 seconds. (who would do that anyway?) so it CAN be plugged to simplify plumbing and avoid air in suction issues.
tom
on the vickers pump, not all fittings are pipe thread. the suction is 3/4 and the 'vent' or 'bypass' is 1/4 both pipe thread.
the pressure port is #8 SAE and uses an o ring to seal. (straight thread)
the 1/4 fitting was thought to be needed if you were going to hold the pump at max pressure and no flow for more than 15 seconds. (who would do that anyway?) so it CAN be plugged to simplify plumbing and avoid air in suction issues.
tom
Thanks Tom for catching my blunders, edits made to correct the original posts.
59apache
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Good job! Congrats 
Another Ahab
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Nicely documented; narrative and the photos. This kind of posting is appreciated. Good job and thank you.
JasonS
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NAPA part number 269-1194. You will need to cut out a portion to enable it to tighten a little more than stock.
Ok, I admit I thought this thread was done, HOWEVER, I took the truck for a nice long shake-down run the other day (not just around the block at 5mph) and found that I had an unacceptable amount of slop in the steering. The truck would dart from one side of the lane to the other very unpredictably and it took all of my concentration and effort just to keep inside the lines. I couldn't even steal a glance at my gauges.
I got it home and started checking things out. I found that I had a LOT of wheel movement before I got any tire movement. Like a full revolution of the steering wheel. I found that the bolt on the pitman arm TRE was seated all the way down to the shoulder and the TRE was still loose in the pitman. I noodled on it for a while and ultimately decided I needed a washer or something on the outside of the pitman to snug the TRE in all the way. I happened to have the exact right diameter pipe in my garage, so a cut a sliver off ~1/4 in length and installed it between the pitman arm and the TRE castle nut. I went for another drive and found that it was slightly improved initially, but then deteriorated quickly and offered little help after 5-10 miles. When I inspected it I found that my spacer had slid around under the pressure (not really a surprise.) So I broke out the welder and welded the insert to the PA.
I got it home and started checking things out. I found that I had a LOT of wheel movement before I got any tire movement. Like a full revolution of the steering wheel. I found that the bolt on the pitman arm TRE was seated all the way down to the shoulder and the TRE was still loose in the pitman. I noodled on it for a while and ultimately decided I needed a washer or something on the outside of the pitman to snug the TRE in all the way. I happened to have the exact right diameter pipe in my garage, so a cut a sliver off ~1/4 in length and installed it between the pitman arm and the TRE castle nut. I went for another drive and found that it was slightly improved initially, but then deteriorated quickly and offered little help after 5-10 miles. When I inspected it I found that my spacer had slid around under the pressure (not really a surprise.) So I broke out the welder and welded the insert to the PA.
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That took care of a bunch of the slop. I would honestly now recommend a different TRE though for that side, something with a shorter shoulder on it. The dimensions are perfect other than the shoulder height. I haven't done any research so I don't know if a better one even exists. I am a competent welder (although not a pro) but I wanted to avoid any welding on the pressure side of the PS system. However, if this fails at most I get some slop in the steering, i.e. it's not a catastrophic failure sending me cartwheeling into traffic.
After putting the collar on I still had more slack than I was comfortable with. I found that the PS box bolts had worked loose, so I tightened them down, and the bolt holding the PA to the mainshaft had room for a few more flats of tightening. I did both of those, and found that I had reduced my slop to ~1/3 of a column rotation before I hit PA movement. I checked my selector shaft adjustment screw and dialed it in with no change. I pinged Gringeltaube and he said that's approx normal for this box with the engine off. Whew.
He did mention, however, that I would want to take a look at my caster angle. I grabbed my angle finder and determined I have a 5* difference between the frame and the top of the axle. I.e. in it's parking spot the truck has +9* angle on the frame, and +4* angle on the axle. I believe I read that as -5* caster, is that correct? And I think I want approx +4* of caster from what Gringeltaube mentioned and what I was able to find searching the threads. Looks like a shim flip is in my immediate future.
After putting the collar on I still had more slack than I was comfortable with. I found that the PS box bolts had worked loose, so I tightened them down, and the bolt holding the PA to the mainshaft had room for a few more flats of tightening. I did both of those, and found that I had reduced my slop to ~1/3 of a column rotation before I hit PA movement. I checked my selector shaft adjustment screw and dialed it in with no change. I pinged Gringeltaube and he said that's approx normal for this box with the engine off. Whew.
He did mention, however, that I would want to take a look at my caster angle. I grabbed my angle finder and determined I have a 5* difference between the frame and the top of the axle. I.e. in it's parking spot the truck has +9* angle on the frame, and +4* angle on the axle. I believe I read that as -5* caster, is that correct? And I think I want approx +4* of caster from what Gringeltaube mentioned and what I was able to find searching the threads. Looks like a shim flip is in my immediate future.
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seth, i can't find it right now, but i had a link to a moog web site that listed every TRE in the known world. so the choice was fairly easy. the play in the wheel is the big reason i did not like the old ross box. since it uses a linear valve and not a modern rotary valve there not only is more play, you need to have a column that slides easily on itself. to measure the caster you really need an old magnetic caster gauge. i had a snap-on one that fit the truck quite well with the front drive hubs off.
tom
tom
I did get the collapsible shaft, so I am comfortable with the parts I used. I believe at this point my problem is down to just caster. I trust the folks that have had good results with this setup, but it is more work than I had anticipated - although thats the case with most projects I do on the truck
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wandering is usually related to not enough toe-in, in this case with such big tires you need 1/4" even with radials. i flipped the top shims which required some redrilling as i recall and the axle housing now looks really yilted, but it works.
OK, going to close this thread out today - finally.
After tightening up EVERYTHING and adjusting the sector shaft adjuster nut to spec I found that with the engine running my slop was completely gone. Every move of the wheel translated into movement at the steering arm on the knuckle, I couldn't ask for more than that.
When I took it on a shake-down run though it was still unacceptably darty. I followed Gringeltaube's instructions and checked my caster on a solid paved surface and found that I had about 1* of positive caster. With PS you ideally want more like 5*, at least thats what the smart folks tell me.
I went to napa and got PN 264-4127 for $22 each. Its a zinc alloy 4* shim, measuring 2.5" wide x 5" long, in other words a perfect fit for the duece and because of the zinc alloy its rated for heavy duty use. It also comes with the pin centering hole already drilled and it's cast with non-slip ridges on it. A great part which made me feel better about the amount of $ I was dropping on it.
I climbed under the truck this morning and got started on it. Does anyone else's front springs re-curve like this? Its been like that since I picked him up from GL and doesnt seem healthy to me, but I've never noticed any problems?
After tightening up EVERYTHING and adjusting the sector shaft adjuster nut to spec I found that with the engine running my slop was completely gone. Every move of the wheel translated into movement at the steering arm on the knuckle, I couldn't ask for more than that.
When I took it on a shake-down run though it was still unacceptably darty. I followed Gringeltaube's instructions and checked my caster on a solid paved surface and found that I had about 1* of positive caster. With PS you ideally want more like 5*, at least thats what the smart folks tell me.
I went to napa and got PN 264-4127 for $22 each. Its a zinc alloy 4* shim, measuring 2.5" wide x 5" long, in other words a perfect fit for the duece and because of the zinc alloy its rated for heavy duty use. It also comes with the pin centering hole already drilled and it's cast with non-slip ridges on it. A great part which made me feel better about the amount of $ I was dropping on it.
I climbed under the truck this morning and got started on it. Does anyone else's front springs re-curve like this? Its been like that since I picked him up from GL and doesnt seem healthy to me, but I've never noticed any problems?
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I stole an idea I found here on the forum, I apologize I don't remember who posted it to give the proper credit, but it sure made this job a snap.
I chocked the wheels well and loosened the u-bolts (I found on the second tire that I didnt even need to remove the u-bolts all the way). I then built up my cribbing and used an 8-ton bottle jack to jack up the front of the leaf spring, about 2-3 springs forward of the axle. This allowed me to slip the shim in without having to disassemble everything and jack the truck up. It also made the job so easy!
After the shim was in I tightened everything back down and repeated for the other side. Finished product looked good, so I took it for a spin.
The truck tracked and drove MUCH better. Its still a little darty, comparable probably with what it was before I installed the PS. I could have gone another 2* probably and I expect that would have taken care of it (purely supposition on my part.) Conversely it could be that my existing stock TRE's on the truck are worn and need to be replaced.
Regardless though the outcome is pretty close to what I hoped for/expected. I did tighten my u-bolts down again post drive, and found that a few of them needed a little tightening and some of them were still very tight.
I chocked the wheels well and loosened the u-bolts (I found on the second tire that I didnt even need to remove the u-bolts all the way). I then built up my cribbing and used an 8-ton bottle jack to jack up the front of the leaf spring, about 2-3 springs forward of the axle. This allowed me to slip the shim in without having to disassemble everything and jack the truck up. It also made the job so easy!
After the shim was in I tightened everything back down and repeated for the other side. Finished product looked good, so I took it for a spin.
The truck tracked and drove MUCH better. Its still a little darty, comparable probably with what it was before I installed the PS. I could have gone another 2* probably and I expect that would have taken care of it (purely supposition on my part.) Conversely it could be that my existing stock TRE's on the truck are worn and need to be replaced.
Regardless though the outcome is pretty close to what I hoped for/expected. I did tighten my u-bolts down again post drive, and found that a few of them needed a little tightening and some of them were still very tight.
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Your springs have had 6500 lbs sitting on them for 40+ years. just need new springs!
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Now, do us all a favor: turn those shims around, front to rear... then try again. Why? because the way you installed them - according to the second pic - you ended with negative caster (!!), instead of 4-5º positive.
G.
Well dangit.
SteelWarrior
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har har har - Nevertheless, I for one REALLY appreciate the time and effort you took to document this - many many posts say "I was able to complete the project using XX parts" - But this takes it to a much more understandable and thereby useful level.
Although I read the whole thread, could you summarize (even if opinion only) what you think you had in it for time and money as compared to what other (PS) options might be out there. This is an upgrade I would Def want to make in the future but I want to consider all the options first.
- Thanks again!
Although I read the whole thread, could you summarize (even if opinion only) what you think you had in it for time and money as compared to what other (PS) options might be out there. This is an upgrade I would Def want to make in the future but I want to consider all the options first.
- Thanks again!
Glad it was helpful. I've pulled so much good info from the smart folks on this site it seemed only fair to try and share some of my experiences.
I was into it ~$1500 total, including all the miscellaneous bits that were unplanned. It was A LOT of man hours. Tough to quantify since there were a lot of stolen moments here and there, but if you're mechanically inclined and already have all the tools and parts you need I would plan on 2-3 full Saturdays. It could go down drastically if you had help, I was doing this by myself.
I was able to get my shims flipped around the correct way, haven't test-driven it yet though. Looking forward to that.
Good luck with your conversion, whatever you choose to do!
bigbird1
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Did you shorten you pitman arm or leave it stock ?
Left it stock for now. If I come across an extra PA I may try shortening it, but I didn't want to cut & weld on the only one I have. The idea of welding on the pressure side of the steering system wasn't very appealing to me.