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SAE 2 Clutch help....what am I doing wrong?

gentrysgarage

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Need some help here from the bigger trucks. I have an SAE 2 dual disc, pull type, self adjusting, stamped angle spring clutch in my M135 behind a Cummins 5.9. I installed the brand new clutch with all parts facing the right direction (i.e. this face towards engine) . Installed transmission with the correct pull type bellhousing (shaft above input centerline) and the clutch release fork only went to the middle of throwout bearing. I pryed the bearing back (which I am now understanding that I have to remove the clutch and reset the specs..is this true?) and the release fork is resting on the top cornor of the throwout bearing. It seems like if the TO was out a little over an 1/8" of an inch it would drop into place. Also the adjuster is alll the way to "new". Please help me Thanks!
 

WillWagner

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Self adjusting, if uncaged will need to be removed and re caged on a press. There are a ton of things to consider when matching things. The flywheel thickness, housing depth, arm length, pedal throw, ratio of the pedal throw.

If it were me, i'd ditch the SOLO and go with a normal single plate clutch.
 

gentrysgarage

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Thanks WillWagner for the reply.
From what you said above the throwout bearing did not come uncaged so there is hope there. Do you know the minimum flywheel thickness? It wouldn't surprise me if Active Truck Parts of Colorado supplied flywheel was out of spec...everything else they sold me was expensive scrap metal I fed to the metal maggots. SAVE YOUR MONEY GUYS AND NEVER BUY FROM THEM...learn from my misfortune! If the flywheel is within spec, I will probably pop for the solo pull type clutch (like you suggest), but I have not seen a clutch that had flywheel or housing thickness specs...is there some web page I could that at? Thanks in Advance!
 

WillWagner

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Doesn't matter if it is a SOLO or a regular single or double disc. There is a stack up of the FW, clutch and PP. The housing needs to be able to accept that stack up, the clutch forks and lever to be able to release the clutch as needed to fully disengage the clutch. There are a ton of different flywheel and housings Cummins offers all to mate up to different clutch, trans, drive applications. I remember at least 20 different flywheel housing options, some are just different starter quadrants, most were different depths for different drive and flywheel options. It isn't as simple as your BB or SB chevy
 

gentrysgarage

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This is frustrating, It is one thing of having to buy expensive parts. Its another thing to throw hundreds of dollars away on a roll of the dice...heck I even hate quarter slots! My truck (and videos for that matter) has been stalled due to lack of money. Anybody have an SAE 2 flywheel adapter/flywheel and clutch setup COMPLETE for a 5.9 6BTA Cummins...so I can escape this costly guessing game!
 

WillWagner

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You need the make/model of the trans, type of clutch being used, input shaft size, distance of throw out bearing to flywheel, edge of bell housing to forks at depressed and released and do the math to get the proper flywheel.

Might be easier to install an Allison MT behind it or find a wrecked Freightliner FL 50, 60, 70 with a manual behind it and get that whole set up.

Are you planning on using the original trans that came in the truck? If not, the 5 or 6 speed the FLs came with are decent transmissions and it would be no big deal to make the jack shaft between the trans and t-case.

And I just saw, this is in the wrong forum. Moving to Deuce hot rodding.
 

dmetalmiki

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Self adjusting, if uncaged will need to be removed and re caged on a press. There are a ton of things to consider when matching things. The flywheel thickness, housing depth, arm length, pedal throw, ratio of the pedal throw.

If it were me, i'd ditch the SOLO and go with a normal single plate clutch.
Hmm, seems like 'NEVER but never' go 'Complicated', When you can keep it simple.
Thank's for the lesson and warning.
Sorry for your plight, Did you really junk NEW expensive parts?,
I never would have, And would try for any re fund at all, If the parts were incorrect surely, 'Not fit for purpose law' comes in here?.
Or, Just maybe, The company would help you out after a person to person call.
Any or all monies refunded would then go to a simpler standard clutch set up as recommended by WillWagner.
Good luck with it all and keep us informed of the progress and outcome.
 

gentrysgarage

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Location
Lost Angels, CA
Hmm, seems like 'NEVER but never' go 'Complicated', When you can keep it simple.
Thank's for the lesson and warning.
Sorry for your plight, Did you really junk NEW expensive parts?,
I never would have, And would try for any re fund at all, If the parts were incorrect surely, 'Not fit for purpose law' comes in here?.
Or, Just maybe, The company would help you out after a person to person call.
Any or all monies refunded would then go to a simpler standard clutch set up as recommended by WillWagner.
Good luck with it all and keep us informed of the progress and outcome.
I won't be ditching the new clutch yet. I am certain the problem is the housing cover.

The overused parts (with broken and stripped bolts and bolt holes) from Active Truck parts were from eBay and I specifically messaged to confirm if it worked on a 5.9 and they said yes. They would not refund anything as they were sold used as is and they had a no refund policy on used parts. So I warn everyone not to buy from them!

I have tried to find out about Fleet Truck Parts 3975179 flywheel housing and the salesman couldn't give me any info and didn't want to be bothered to find out. I asked if it was available at their Fontana location and he said no, asked if it could be shipped there he said no it is only at their warehouse in Hayward CA. I find out it's not their warehouse but the importers warehouse I call the importer and they knew not that it was for a manual or automatic. Where more interested in who let me call them direct, seemed like an interrogation with the darkroom and light bulb in the eyes situation. Severely ugly, considering I did a web search for the part number and city and got their website and the part was shown (again with no info!)

If I don't find another housing, I have had an indirect offer to mill down the housing...but have no specs on the depth of a manual cover. It seems all this info is a closely guarded secret amongst the Cummins supply chain.

So sad the best diesel engine ever designed will have such an Archilles heel of no support for info on the ancillary parts. Have the same issue with the bracket for the air compressor would rather buy it than make it as if I get it wrong the heavy a$$ Bendix 550 will shatter that gearcase cover!. Another question for you guys why does it seem that junkyards that are scrapping these engines scrap off the CPL?

And of course, I will keep everyone informed as I do not wish this headache (and wasted money) on anyone especially wy fellow sufferers of the OD decease!
 

WillWagner

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I don't think it is a case of people NOT wanting to help you, but rather they CAN'T help you. Most parts people don't even know about the different options available. They know that in order to get the correct part for a customers engine, one that is either bought new in a vehicle, used in a vehicle or reman from ReCon, an ESN is needed. That number will show how the engine left the factory when it was put in the vehicle it was designed for or designed to replace.

I worked there for 30 years. I remember doing re-powers as far back as 1995 , IIRC, the first ones were these little funky trucks that So Cal Edison had that were purpose built for cleaning components up on top of the power poles with some sort of high pressure hot liquid, 12 of them I think. They had Deutz 6 cylinder engines in them and they wanted 6B's. When the engine for the first one got there, it came with no flywheel housing, flywheel, front mount, fan drive or idler/tensioner, alternator bracket, coolant inlet, A/C mount, air compressor...because that drives the power steering and Deutz couldn't tell us what type of drive was used.....basically it was a long block with some extra parts on it.

When I saw the engine, I went to the Engineer, at the time it was a guy named Bob Kano. He was one of the BEST engineers I had the pleasure of working with. He explained to me the process of finding out what pieces parts to get based on all the things like drive angle, placement of the cooling package, cooling rejection needs, drive type, etc., and led me to his library. His library was a wall, filled with these little 2 ring hard cover binders, option books. These books had every part that Cummins had ever made and created a p/n for, for every engine made at the time, from the little A series used in UPS package truck and generators, B, C, 504, 555, V8 300, 903, 10L, 855, K19, 38 all the way to K50.....that was the biggest engine Cummins made at the time, Haul Trucks and prime power. Every option had techinal drawings, measurements and a list of other otions that would work with it.

I was tasked, on this first re-power, of stripping the old system out, putting the new engine in place with no ends on it, setting drive angles, finding an envelope for the cooling package, measuring and then spending days looking through the option books to see what Cummins offered that would work for this application to make it fit in the package/envelope we had to work with. Cross members were moved/removed, transmissions were changed in favor of an Allison, PTOs added, intake and exhaust manifolds changed due to the envelope the engine HAD to stay in. I think the first truck was there 5 or 6 months. After we figured out what the engine needed from the factory to mount it into the chassis, the rest came with all of the parts I put on the 1st one and time was cut to about 3 weeks.

Now, all of those options are in a database in the Cummins system. HOWEVER, the components are current production only. The engine you are working with, in Cummins eyes, is a dinosaur, not in production, obsolete. I used to get yelled at, well mostly just a good talking to, when at the end of my career, the engineers would tell me that I had to "make it work because there is no other part available" I would go back to these books, yes they are still stored in a box I left at the shop, find a part from "the old days" Knowing it would work on the newer engines, order and install the part and it would work perfectly without the engineers approval.

Now, though, as I was in the retirement phase at Cummins and Cummins in their "want control of everything" ways, have limited the people that have access to the option database. When that happened, it was a severe blow to how I did my job, it increased times, the amount of incorrect parts ordered and returned, forced fabrication of components which means if it ever failed, the end user is SOL, etc. That is one of the reasons I left as early as I did.

Enough. But I do remember the next repowers. Disneyland Monorail tow trucks! It was cool, after the re-power of both, I got to drive them up on the rail! V8-470 out, tier2 6B in.
 

WillWagner

The Person You Were Warned About As A Child
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MOST 6B engines never came with a twin disc clutch. They were single disc or autos. Not enough torque/HP to warrant that much clutch.
 

gentrysgarage

Active member
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Location
Lost Angels, CA
Thanks WillWagner for the "insider" view there! Cummins had the pinnacle of diesel design with the 5.9 and the big brother 8.3. And I can see that they could never sell a newer inferior and more troublesome motors if they didn't sour the milk. But even the people selling the aftermarket parts have no frickin' clue what they are selling nor have any info nor desire to find out a simple depth dimension!

Thanks Again Will!
 

gentrysgarage

Active member
553
118
43
Location
Lost Angels, CA
Some of this has already been stated but it is easier to copy and paste from a post I just did on FB with other people trying to help me about todays adventures into the HE Double L. Of this SAE2 flywheel housing dilemma:

I have the same one...now get this I have been working on getting the info on the Akima AK-3975179 the resellers don't know whether it is manual or automatic bellhousing. I called Akima in Hayward CA and they didn't know but thought it was for a manual. I tell them I need to know the depth to compare it with mine and said I would call back Monday. Did so this morning and they tried for a little bit to deflect to the same vendors that didn't know anything, nor had one in stock to measure (they all drop ship from Akima). I get transferred to a guy who tries to look it up for me and finds like everyone else there is no info in the books, but does agree to measure one for me...THANK YOU Charles! He comes back and says it is right at 6 inches!!!😲😢( Mine measures right at 5 1/2!) Soooo Back to square one. I can't see a dual disc clutch pack is shallower than most clutch packs for a manual. Starting to think that I got another piece of Scrap from Active Truck Parts in CO (all the other parts went to the metal maggots! Don't buy from them!) in the form of an out of spoec flywheel. As par the course I will keep everyone informed as I am not the only one who wants to run the BEST transmission (Eaton FSO-6406/8406) behind a 6BT!
 
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