Saurer 4K 4FA APC Prospective Purchase - Pro and Cons

[datadawg]

Been bitten by a small bug to own armor and the itch is getting stronger. Trying to figure out what to focus on, but have been offered a Saurer APC for around 15K euro. It's in Eastern Europe, and from what I gather was in the Austrian army up until 3 years ago. Does anyone own a Saurer 4K? The youtube vids look very cool. Is it costly/difficult to keep running? How available are the rubber track pads for replacement? Two of the things that intrigue me is (1) it is street driveable due to pads (though LEO and public panic may make this not viable); and (2) top has 2 large hatch openings that make the rear a quasi convertible... so can take a crowd on a joy ride and not feel like you are in a submarine.
If anyone owns a Saurer, do you think the investment of time/effort/money/PITA is going to pay out vs. the unit's value in US? Basically, if I self import, is there any risk I'm going to be underwater financially vs. buying something similar located here. Finally, I'm an armor neophyte, am I getting in over my head by getting tracked vehicle as first toy? I live in suburban Philly (Bucks County) and would want to drive it on the road maybe once a month. I'm sure I could visit w/the local LEO ahead of time to make them comfortable I'm not a lunatic/jihadi/anti-government anarchist, but if every other Prius driver calls 911 on me, it's going to get very old taking kids out for icecream in the thing. Thanks for any feedback.

 

[EwaMarine]

I say go for it. Life is short. If you get buyers remorse sell it....we have a M113 APC and its fun to play with..

 

[datadawg]

I say go for it. Life is short. If you get buyers remorse sell it....we have a M113 APC and its fun to play with..

What kind of drivetrain does the M113 have? Is it generally easier to source and operate domestic armor than foreign metal? I just did quick search and one company is selling 80 units... Maybe a group buy? Any idea what M113 pricing is like???

 

[guns1977]

Hmmm interested depending on price.

 

[Austringer]

If you can find a legal M113, MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A VERY TIGHT PAPER TRAIL, they are in the 80-150K range. Only know of 3 or 4 private owned M113s in the USA.

Jason

 

[Austringer]

If you are talking about these units, good luck getting them back in the states, not saying that it can't be done but you'll have to get State Department import permits b/c they fall under ITAR regulations. These units will more than likely be in the 100 to 200K range, but I could be wrong.

http://iso-group.com/sustainment/military-land-vehicles/M113/

 

[datadawg]

If you are talking about these units, good luck getting them back in the states, not saying that it can't be done but you'll have to get State Department import permits b/c they fall under ITAR regulations. These units will more than likely be in the 100 to 200K range, but I could be wrong.

http://iso-group.com/sustainment/military-land-vehicles/M113/

Yes, those are the ones. I just called the contact person and LMVM. I'll post back results. I'm a bit befuddled why re-importation would be so restricted and why the pricing is so high... I found some Austrian Saurer 4K units in Europe for 15K euro, and it's not like they are cheap Russian iron that was sitting on the side of the road. Would have expected pricing parity of sorts, but I'm completely uninformed with armor and this is my first toe dip in the water. I did think that US APC would be more patriotic, more serviceable, and probably less of a headache, but obviously I don't understand this business or things are completely irrational (due to politics or bureaucracy or ...). Jason, thanks for the input though. At $100K, it doesn't make economic sense for me at least.

 

[B3.3T]

The problem with the Saurer is parts. You blow a gearbox, you are done. Secondary drive, done. Track?? Even if you find these parts, they all require a Form 6 and will be big $$ to just ship. As for values, its all supply and demand. The better stuff is going to cost you. There is a reason for each being high or low. You want quality with available parts, it will cost you. Do your homework.

 

[datadawg]

Just called Compliance unit of US Department of State in Washington DC to ask them about ITAR regs for military equipment that a US citizen wants to import here as a collector. The gentleman w/whom I spoke said they only handle temporary importation, not permanent imports of military equipment and referred me to ATF. I asked if temporary means it can stay here for 50 years. He chuckled and said it means it has to be exported back at the end of the license period. I have a message with ATF import unit. Will post if I learn something of value.

 

[datadawg]

The problem with the Saurer is parts. You blow a gearbox, you are done. Secondary drive, done. Track?? Even if you find these parts, they all require a Form 6 and will be big $$ to just ship. As for values, its all supply and demand. The better stuff is going to cost you. There is a reason for each being high or low. You want quality with available parts, it will cost you. Do your homework.

I guess a smart man would buy two units and use one for parts!

 

[Carlo]

I have just traded for a SPZA1 turret version. Parts are easy to get. Track pads also. Plus the motor is very reliable. I have a FV432 ands its like day and night compared to the SPZA1. Faster, turns better, stops better. Everything.
Who are you dealing with? I presume a CZ dealer?

 

[datadawg]

Guys, here's info on the M113's. They are now under contract, originally from Belgium and went for around $50K as is. They were in fantastic shape, indoor storage, etc. I made a nice introduction with the company that brokered the sale and if they have any other units, I will post. I was told that the process to bring them in involves either State Department permits or Commerce Department, but it didn't sound like the process was insurmountable.

 

[datadawg]

I have just traded for a SPZA1 turret version. Parts are easy to get. Track pads also. Plus the motor is very reliable. I have a FV432 ands its like day and night compared to the SPZA1. Faster, turns better, stops better. Everything.
Who are you dealing with? I presume a CZ dealer?

Carlo, I can't tell if you just traded the FV432 for SPZA1 or vice versa. Which one is faster, turns better and stops better, the SPZA1?
I have so far received reply from a Guenter Ctornik from tanks and more which is in Austria. They have units starting for 15K Euro, but apparently without turrets. Ideally, I'd like something with a turret. I am waiting to hear back from mortar investments and another Czech dealer. From what I understand, you have to go and inspect the stuff, no matter where you buy from.

My ideal situation would be to find a unit in a low labor country, where I can get it fully overhauled before importing. I am curious, if you don't mind sharing, where did you trade your Saurer and how did the deal work out?

 

[Carlo]

Sorry for the confusion.
I have a FV432 and I have traded with another museum a SPZA1. The SPZ is faster better quality everything, BUT for less than half the money your are spending you can get a FV432.
The 432 is ok for someone who does not use it everyday.
I have heard of Mortar investments in CZ. You are going to spend another 10 grand to ship it from there to your door. Uk would be much less if you go the FV432 route.

 

[datadawg]

Sorry for the confusion.
I have a FV432 and I have traded with another museum a SPZA1. The SPZ is faster better quality everything, BUT for less than half the money your are spending you can get a FV432.
The 432 is ok for someone who does not use it everyday.
I have heard of Mortar investments in CZ. You are going to spend another 10 grand to ship it from there to your door. Uk would be much less if you go the FV432 route.

Carlo, thanks for the clarification. Please post some photos of the Saurer! I am very interested to hear some additional comparisons, since you have first hand experience with both. How is the size inside and comfort? Fuel usage? I am primarily interested in an APC as a toy, maybe take it out twice a month for joy ride with the kids and do a parade couple times a year. Maybe play in the mud every 3 months. So pretty limited usage. But I don't have any experience with APC or armor and don't want to screw up by making a bad decision. Thanks again for input!

 

[Carlo]

Judgeing from what you are saying the 432 would be allot cheaper and more tank. 432's are cheap right now but the goverment has run out so prices will climb.
The SPZ can get 5 max in the rear plus driver and commander. The 432 can get 8 to 10 plus driver and commander. The 432 is more of a M113. The SPZ is smaller. Not as tall. Less wide. I use my trucks, tanks, and apc's every weekend on rentals. I will post some photos this weekend.

 

[Carlo]

Oh the BMP's are the toughest by far. They run and run. Parts are not bad either. They don't come with track pads so a new type track must be bought that will allow track pads. I have jumped BMPs off 2 meter drops and felt nothing. I could never do this in a 432 or SPZ. Mortar investments has BMP1 and OT90's. both very good APCs.

 

[B3.3T]

BMPs are not practical in the US being over width. Permits are required to ship and not street legal. 432s are right at the limit.

 

[Carlo]

I transport my APC's with one of my 923's. With the exhaust and abc it's 3 meters wide which is over width. My SPZA1 is almost inside the limit.

 

[B3.3T]

You have a very nice setup.