Scavenging Fuel - Can a Deuce Do It?

[panshark]

I'm not disputing what WM said about alternators standing up to EMP's, but I have often worried if the capacitors, resistors, etc that is in the alternator (voltage reg?) would survive a pulse. Is that something that would be safe? Or...because it's sealed up in the alternator, does the alternator housing itself protect the voltage regulator from Fry-dom, and acts as it's own Faraday cage?

Inquiring minds want to know...

 

[USAFSS-ColdWarrior]

......... Wouldn't take long for TSHTF.

The good news is that there would be plenty of fuel because 95 percent of the vehicles on the road would not be able to run.

As OP of this Thread, I appreciate the tangent(s) our thoughts have taken us on..... and hope they continue.

WM brings up a good point related to the original SCAVENGING topic.... With all those "dead" motor vehicles cluttering the roadways, just imagine the fuel available in thier otherwise useless fuel tanks.

Your EMP-safe Deuce will be able to navigate the congested highways and byways, and with the right equipment, will have a virtually unlimited fuel supply. Scavenging from filling stations would not be necessary as long as you could suck the combustible liquids out of ANY car/truck's fuel filler tube. (Disabled Semi's become the life-blood of our MV motorpool - each one with good, clean Diesel in their tanks, along with easy access through the fill port.)


Locking gas cap or "hatch" ? ! ? ! ? - Who cares..... NEXT !

 

[USAFSS-ColdWarrior]

I'm not disputing what WM said about alternators standing up to EMP's, but I have often worried if the capacitors, resistors, etc that is in the alternator (voltage reg?) would survive a pulse. Is that something that would be safe? Or...because it's sealed up in the alternator, does the alternator housing itself protect the voltage regulator from Fry-dom, and acts as it's own Faraday cage?

Inquiring minds want to know...

(I don't know the answer to that but.....)

Not to worry....
There will be an UNLIMITED supply of useful batteries in all the disabled vehicles after the EMP event. Just run until your Batteries are down, then swap for a new pair.

 

[wreckerman893]

The EMP will follow electrical paths......even equipment in Faraday Cages will have to be disconnected from antennas and outside power sources until the danger of EMP is over.

In a sneak attack very little equipment will survive......the military keeps "war stocks" of vehicles and equipment but unless this stuff was shielded from the EMP it would be just as worthless as the stuff already issued to units.

The government has completely ignored the KISS principle when buying military vehicles.....the EPA hamstrung the vehicle manufacturers with emissions standards. Most modern military vehicles are not hardened to withstand EMP....they are loaded down with computers and electronic controls (the PLS system, one of the military's prime transportation systems, has an electronic keypad gearshift....if it goes bad there is no way to engage the transmission).

I would bet that North Korean (and other third world countries) trucks, tanks and armored vehicles are very basic and would survive an EMP event.

As far as capacitors inside alternators I don't know. I do know that there will still be plenty of alternators in parts stores that may not be affected by the EMP. You can run an older car with a bad alternator...you just have to keep replacing or recharging the batteries. If it is a standard transmission you can always push start it.

The good/bad news is that the gooberment will not be moving masses of troops around to "keep order" in the event of an EMP attack. Even modern busses are electronically controlled and would be useless. They will also not be delivering any relief supplies to civilians...if they have any running vehicles they will be using them to take care of themselves.

Contrary to popular liberal dogma the govenment does not have a responsibility to take care of individual citizens...only to maintain "public order". If maintaining public order means confiscating private property they will do so...until they have taken everything from everybody. In the end they will not save anybody.....just squandered what was left in a futile effort to remain in power.

My guess is that they will "requisition" any running vehicle to use as they see fit.

Your rights will not be considered.

Not to mention that if you have a running vehicle you will become a target for those who think they have a "right" to mobility.

Travel after TSHTF is going to be difficult and dangerous....you risk losing what you have to the powers-that-be, other desperate survivors or criminals and thugs.

I would not venture from my LZ for at least three months after a catastrophic event if I had the means to shelter in place and protect what I have. By then the big "die off" will have occured and there will be fewer people competing for anything left (which won't be much food wise).

Another thing to consider is clean water. No power from the grid means no water from the municipal water works or even wells. This means no flushing toilets in cities when millions of people live in close proximity. New York City would be a cesspool in a matter of days. Rain would flush waste that people deposited in the streets into streams amd rivers. Diseases would such as typus and cholora would become rampant.

Clean water might be more valuable than fuel or food......you can live several weeks without food, without water you will be through in a matter of days. I have a well with a hand pump on it and am next to a creek for washing and flushing water.

Here is another fly in the ointment.

All of the new tractors have electronic controls since now all agricultural, logging and construction equipment has to meet EPA standards (don't ya just love a mission creeping gooberment agency).

This means that a lot of farmers will not be able to plant food crops (even if they could get seed and fuel) unless they still have older tractors. This means the food supply will be interrupted for years to come.

As Pogo the Possum once opined "We have met the enemy and he is us".

 

[A/C Cages]

Dirty bombs are what we have to worry about more then nuclear ones. Those are harder to find and are watched to closely by governments.
Those dirty bombs that you can make which are very low yeilding but still disruptive. Just the right placement near or in a building that holds much stored info on banking, money, or physical usage will cripple the market or banking. These bombs can also kill everyday cars around it too.
They are just smaller but just as effective. Imagine 40 to 50 of these all over America set off at the same time. Then the chaos begins!

 

[A/C Cages]

What has to be the most lethal EMP to worry about is the ones you can find on how to make just looking it up on the Internet. So now just the local punk kid down the street now can make them from scraps.
I wonder how many SS bloggers are now Googling that up, lol I cant lie, I already did after hearing about that on the History channel the other day. lol

 

[Bill W]

I've used all kinds of pumps in the 27 years I was in the fuel tank cleaning business ( mostley yachts but did a fair share of underground tanks also ).
The best lifting pump I used was my pneumatic diapham pumps ( 1" and 2" models ) but they draw alot of CFM to work, I've also seen gas powered ones which are usually single diapham types. I do still have a 1/2" pneumatic pump that I'll need to hook up to my deuces tank and see how it works, even at slow pace I'm thinking it should do about 3-4gpm ( gonna have to test that )
Below is a few tidbits on UG tanks and pumps


If you were even able to pressurize a underground tank it would take less then 20psi before you ruptured it.
Most newer gas stations have large capacity tanks being its far more effeciante (sp) to deliver a full tanker load than a halfload of fuel.
The gas station pump pickup tube is 10 to 12" off the bottom of the storage tank so there is atleast around 100gal left on the bottom after stations pump run dry
Newer fill pipes have a backflow baffle in the tube that you'd need to get around when trying to snake a hose/pipe or pump down.
Any pump ever made will push liquid better then it will draw/suck it
Lift is a problem with any pump unless there a fitting where you can add liquid to help prime it or have your discharge hose stacked so it will let priming liquid flow back into pump as its trying to prime

 

[SCSG-G4]

The Deuces are almost their own Faraday cage, especially if sitting on good tires (electrically isolated from the ground). EMP from a point source will radiate out in all directions, but does tend to move faster in good conductors (IE, metal). That's where the damage comes from, when the electricity (at millions of volts) goes into a device from one side sooner than the other side - and the effect is multiplied when the device is normally only exposed to 12 volts or less (think anything with transistors or computer chips). Something similar happens to modern digital cameras when people try to use old flash units with them - older cameras had a mechanical flash sync so the voltage did not matter (my Vivitar 365's put out 270 volts but very little amperage), modern cameras use transistors that can only handle 6-12 volts in the flash sync circuit. Transistor wires are so small that they simply burn up when hit with that much voltage.

 

[A/C Cages]

Racetrak in Deland was robbed once and they found a 1/4 inch airline hose stuffed down thru the rear vent tubes on the side of the store behind the dumpster. Someone was using a small pump and over a months time stole @1000 gallons of fuel.
Granted its not a quick way to refuel, but still another way. The small hose was to get around the vent protection.

 

[militarysteel]

even if there isnt a any fuel in the tanks of cars and trucks on the side of the road, they will still filled with transmission oil and engine oil, your M35A2 can burn that no problem.

 

[A/C Cages]

Dont forget all those abondoned McDonalds, Burger Kings, ect ect. Fry oil !!!

 

[militarysteel]

i have a nice hardened sharp punch, and a 8lb sledge one good hit into a fuel tank, oil pan or trans pan, and a couple 5 gallon buckets, and you are dumpin fuel goodness into your tank and be on your merry way , in no time flat,

they do that to gas tanks in the junk yards all the time.

 

[wb1895]

 

[Darwin T]

all my water wells have a hand pump on top and all my well pumps have a plug in power cord if i can find a genny.

 

[wreckerman893]

i have a nice hardened sharp punch, and a 8lb sledge one good hit into a fuel tank, oil pan or trans pan, and a couple 5 gallon buckets, and you are dumpin fuel goodness into your tank and be on your merry way , in no time flat,

I can see punching the fuel tank because most of them have anti-siphon devices in them.
A lot of them are plastic and can be opened easily with a cordless drill with a big bit. Put your catch pan under the tank, drill a hole and get gas (assuming the owner kept the vehicle fueled up, I never let mine get under 1/4 of a tank).

In an urban, vehicle rich environment I can also go along with punching the tranny and oil pan....out in the boonies where you might have to recover and reuse abandoned vehicles I would just open the drain plug to get to the oil. Later if you went back you could just refill the fluids (assuming you could get new fluids) and use the vehicle.

Good catch on the abandoned resturaunts with all that nice veggie oil...I had not considered that. Any place that cooked a lot of food would be a potential source of veggie.

Another thought that came to my mind is rail cars full of veggie and other flammables....Archer Daniel Midland ships whole trains of tanker cars full of veggie oil. That much oil would last a long time and could be used for other uses than fuel since it is food grade oil.

This would depend on where you found it and if you could maintain control of it.

If the grid goes down I'm not sure what would happen to the railroads.....do modern diesel engines have computer control? I know there is an elaborate ground trraffic control system for trains to keep track of them and that knocking out communications would disrupt that. There may be trains stranded out in the boonies just waiting to be scavenged.

It is amazing how tied together all these systems are. One domino falls and takes the rest with it.

 

[Darwin T]

be careful opening up railroad cars there is some nasty stuffin some of them. however some railroad cars carry corn and grain, and some carry coke (like man made coal). and box cars who knows?????

 

[Darwin T]

keep a tow chain hooked on the pintle hitch. if you find something good in a bad spot, hook on the chain and drag it to a safer place.

 

[davidkroberts]

i think this is kinda a far fetched thread for allot of us. If a big disaster hits its probably going to be regional which means you can drive somewhere else in your green monster and use that all important survival tool..... the credit card. If its a global or nationwide outage or shutdown where exactly are you going to go. I can see moving out of population centers but that can be done inside of 100 miles usually. If it gets to the point your scavenging gas and draining crank cases where are you going where you think things are any better. That being said there are millions of vehicles in the US and in a shortage just about all of them will have at least 4 quarts of oil in them and maybe 2-3 quarts of ATF. Semis and heavy equipment is where i would go. Bigger tanks filled with diesel that most peole cant use anyway and large engines/components containing gallons of usuable oils. Between a good sized dozer and front end loader you will probably be able to get a tank or two of fluids. Why bother with a gas station that by design will be on a major travel route and most likely in a built up area. Go out to a worksite/farm/rail yard/ or old boat dock and clean house. I have enough old abandoned equipment withing 10 miles of me to keep me mobile for a month. Take a few tools and strap a fuel can to a alice pack frame and start walking around or ride a bike.

I still cant see how this is really going to help though. Im just a normal guy with a few hobby trucks. I dont have a farm or any big equipment or fuel storage. Just at the house i have

1. an m35A2 with at least a half tank. Im not prepping for anything i just dont trust the gauge
2. a M1009 with a full tank.... same reason
3. my wifes FJ cruiser with who knows how much gasoline
4. 3- 5 gallon fuel cans with both gasoline and diesel
5. 10 gallons of new heavy-duty motor oil
6. 5 combined gallons of ATF,Gear oil, other motor oils, 2 cycle oil, flammable suppliments (Marvel Mystery, Lucas)
7. maybe 5 gallons of peanut fryer oil and vegetable oil.

So just at the house I have about 135 gallons of usable material at the house. So figure I keep the M1009 full and use my towbar behind the M35. Fill the deuce tank up with everything else i have around I still have another full tank worth of fuel. Towing the 1009 i figure of getting around 8 mpg with 48+/- gallons gives a range of 384 miles per tank.So i could load the kids/wife up and go potentially 768 miles without scavenging anything and still have a M1009 sitting on full.

But im not going that far Im just going to my mothers place or my farm which is about 40 miles away..... Its a far far walk to get to the farm and its a 20 minute drive just to get gas.

Not being arguementative just making the point you probably have more than enough sitting around already if you think about it.

 

[USAFSS-ColdWarrior]

That is one thing the deuce has over newer vehicles.......EMP will not affect it.

EMP will not affect batteries or alternators....just electronic ignitions.

Most vehicles with the older points and distributor ignitions systems will not be affected either.

EMP will disrupt or destroy any sensitive electronic devices not protected by a Faraday Cage or otherwise shielded from it.

Very strong EMP can disrupt the electrical grid. During the H-bomb tests in the Pacific EMP caused power outages in Hawaii.

The premise of the book is not far fetched at all.

A big EMP event could cause major problems that would lead to FUBAR in short order.

For those who don't know exactly WHAT a Faraday Cage is, here's a video that does an EXCELLENT JOB of explainging the physics AND is kinda THRILLING as well......

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIjC7DjoVe8[/media]

 

[wreckerman893]

It must be hard to walk with balls that big.