She won't start in the cold!

[ken326@yahoo.com]

I live i North east Pa and my fuel from the pump gels up all the time and i have diesal pickup and more and it happens in all of them. The new low sulfer diesal doesnt provide nearly the same lubrication properites as the old, its playing havick with newer vehicles fuel pumps etc. I add additive in all of mine all the time. Mine gelled up on me yesterday I put additive in 15 minutes later running like a charm. good luck

 

[Lax]

Sorry guys,
I am a member of the National Ski Patrol and today I was on duty all day so I could not answer any of your questions. Here are answers to some of your questions.

1) The batteries are brand new. The truck turns over very fast. As fast as during the summer so crank speed is not an issue.
2) I keep the batteries fully charged when not in use.
3) I can get some info on where the fuel filters are I should look at on this thing since it was four years ago and I don't remember when they are. I changed them when I bought the truck. I drive it very few miles a year.
4) The smoke when trying to start it appears white.
5) I have never used additive but I will start as long as I can add it to the tank well after I filled up.
6) Any suggestions on how to drain the tank? Over a 5 gal. bucket? Unscrew the bottom plug quickly and screw it back in so I don't get a lot of fuel wasted?
7) Even though I don't drive it much I have gone through a fair amount of tank fill ups in four years and this cold weather lack of starting has ALWAYS been a problem since the first winter I owned it so it is nothing new but really needs to be fixed now.

 

[gimpyrobb]

I use my truck alot and it has trouble starting below 15*. I give the truck a quick shot of either to start it and have accepted it as the way to go. I know my batts are good as are the filters. I think if you change from the intake flme heater to the either kit, you will have no more troubles. My anyhoo.

 

[Earth]

LAX--step one is change those filters. 4 years of crud and condensation could be the culprit.

Gimpy is right on--if it starts with ether that might be the way to go. Lots of trucks get started with it; lots of guys consider it taboo. But it does work.

 

[badgmc56]

I have a flame heater setup on my truck and it did not start well in the cold till I changed out my in-tank pump. You could hear the pump run but it was not pushing any fuel. You definately have to check for fuel pressure and as was mentioned check or change fuel filters. If the fuel pump is not pumping ,you will not get any fuel to the nozzel for the flame heater. Yesterday it was 13 degrees and my truck fired right up without a coolant heater.

 

[nosliw]

I'll have had my Deuce a year in March. Haven't had to start it in any freezing temps up until now. Its been around 15 degrees here. I tried cranking it twice without the flame heater and it wouldn't hit for about 7-8 seconds each. Hit the flame heater once and it fired right up.

Do some trucks not have a flame heater? Mine says specifically on the dash to use it below 20 degrees.

If mine didn't start with the flame heater, I'm not scared to use a a little ether.


Thanks.

 

[Cantrade]

I would like to know exactly how the inlet air pre-heater works. I have read the data that I have available and it seems to me that this is basically an injector device that is spark plug fired only when the dash switch is in the "on" position. (My Cummins Dodge engine has an electric manifold heater that is on a timer/temp switch and must be on for a few seconds prior to cranking.)

My data plate in the M35A2 says to only activate the "on" switch while the engine is cranking. I think it works since I only have to crank the engine twice for about 10 sec while using the pre-heater. When warm, the engine fires within about 2 seconds.

So, do you not fire the pre-heater before cranking? Does it actually burn fuel in the air chamber or is there a exchange of heat going on within the manifold?

Sorry for the elementary questions--i have had this truck a week and am finding that I know very little about them.

BTW. I use AMSOIL Cold Flow Improver and Diesel Concentrate Conditioner.

 

[derby]

Lax, I may have missed it, but is the fuel that is in it from the summer? badgmc, I think there is a booster pump with the flame heater kit. you must have good pressure to atomize the fuel. the 15 psi from the in tank is not enough but getting it to that booster is important. the nozzle sprays a fine mist past the electrode directly into the intake manifold. you have to be cranking to bring in more oxygen to burn and not drip fuel in the turbo. there is also a fuel filter inline to the flame heater. it is located just below the the back of the injection pump. it is a fine place for a filter I have mixed feelings about ether, it will work ,i have used it but you have to know when is too much. you can cause some major damage if over used. the problem with ether is the colder it is the slower it evaporates, so after several attempts you keep spraying until your air filter is saturated then wala it fires and guess what, non stop ether supply. this is when things go wrong. I would get a ether start kit if you end up using ether, it has a regulated nozzle and would be hard to cause the previously mentioned damage if you follow the directions. just my ramblings

 

[badgmc56]

derby, If the lift pump is not supplying the fuel system, the booster pump does you no good. You are correct about the flame heater filter. I would also check that for free flow. I'll bet not too many guys change that because of the place it's in. If you have a new one on hand, change it. Mine was a bit restricted.

 

[Cantrade]

Thanks Derby, for your informative description of the flame heater. I thought that was the way it operated but was not sure.

I worked in the Artic for over 20 years and we used to start Ford and Chevy diesels at -30/-40 by spraying WD-40 into the air cleaner inlet. These were glow plug engines and were terrible starters. I think it was the propellant that helped the starting and not the lubricant.

I think the best solution is to keep the engine at least fairly warm. It will spin faster and the battery will have more life when warm. Also, warm fluid fuel will of course atomize better and combust better. Maybe a few of those magnetic heaters would help. One on the oil pan, one on the fuel tank and a couple in the battery compartment.

I'll bet these flame heater systems get very little PM attention since they are used so seldom.
BTW, I know biodiesel gels at between 30 and 40 degrees F.

 

[Lax]

Okay, Guys. I appreciate the help. Maybe we are getting somewhere. Let me add (again) that for four years the truck has never started in the winter without ether. That is with fuel bought in the winter and fuel bought months earlier in the summer. It made no difference. The first winter I owned it, three yeas ago, I tried to start it regularly in the winter. It never did without ether. SO I thought that must be the nature of the beast with M35s since I never owned one. After more research I read guys starting deuces in zero or close to zero with flame heather in less then ten seconds! Now remember I can crank until the batteries are dead and I still get no pop much less start. So I think I must need a flame heater since that seems to be the ticket. Over $300 later with a flame heater installed there is ZERO difference in my cold starting. In a word. It doesn't!

Remember, in four years it has not started in the cold. I have put a number of tanks of fuel in it and no change. I did change the filter when I got the truck four years ago. BUT, it did not start cold back then either when they were brand new so maybe it is a filter now but not back then since they were new. When I hit the flame heater I do hear something happening but it does not even hint at helping the to start.

Yes keeping the engine warm would be a good idea but if I could keep the engine warm I would not have a problem. However since it was 2 degrees this morning at home keeping the engine warm is not possible. More importantly others can start their deuces in this temp with no problem. I should be able to also. I can add fuel additive tomorrow and give it a try. That I have never done but do the guys that can start in these temps ALL use fuel additive? If not then I should not have to either. I want to be able to be parked overnight or longer in zero temps (away from electricity) and then be able to start right up. I would settle for the flame heater to help me start but even that does not seam to help. So that is all the information I have for you. As always, any suggestions are welcome. Thank you everyone.

 

[doghead]

In our area, you need to use additives in the winter or you will have trouble.

 

[ken326@yahoo.com]

ok the fuel additive is the first place to start, its easy and cheap if that doesnt work you have to look at a few other things, fuel pressure, injectors, or rings worn out. those are the three things related to hard starting in cold weather only. ether is much more explosive there fore starting the vehicle, I would check those three if the fuel treatment doesnt work and let us know what happens from there. good luck keep us informed.
Ken

 

[Cantrade]

Lax,

It sure is looking like your pre-heater is not working at all. If the engine doesn't burbble, stutter or exhibit any changes while cranking with the flame heater switch on, it seems to me that there is no heat in the air inlet manifold. If the engine cranking performance does change while the heater switch is on but the engine still does not start then the problem is somewhere else.

It only takes 3 things to light a fire: fuel, oxygen & ignition source. If any of these are missing then the heater will not fire. I have not done this but it seems to me that you could disconnect the small diameter high pressure line at the nozzle and turn on the switch. (The accessory switch should be on, I think, and fuel stop should be pulled out.) Fuel should flow out of the tubing. If no fuel, you have to back up to the low pressure side of the pump and see if there is a supply there. Keep backing up in the system and if there is a blockage you will find it. The small fuel filter in the supply line looks like a suspect. (I know you replaced the flame heater system but if your fuel was contaminated or there was rust in the tank, you could have a plugged or water logged filter by now.)

So, if there is pressurized fuel to the nozzle ( the nozzle could be plugged but it is new so not very likely) you have to verify that the spark plug is working. If it sparks the only item left is oxygen. Surely, the air filter has been checked. If not, it is worth a look to see if the filter is clean and clear. I think if it was clogged you would have trouble getting sufficient power from the engine in the summer.

When I use my flame heater I notice definite changes in the cranking characteristics of the engine. It tries to catch when the heater is on. Starting takes a couple of tries but the engine finally lights and it stumbles to life. Without the heater, the engine spins at the same speed and does not even try to start.

Sorry if this seems too basic but there are not too many parts of the flame heater system and it might be worth a detailed check.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[JCKnife]

After a week with highs in the 20's, I got mine to fire up today. The mistake I made when I brought her home is, I parked facing north--the Solargizer is shaded by the cab all day!

So, I stuck a 12-v trickle charger on one battery at a time (moved it back and forth to keep them even...) and after a couple hours she fired right up (it's in the low 30s today). Running real rough at first so I held on the flame heater for a few seconds, she smoothed right out.

I let her run about 20 minutes, purred like a 13,000 lb. kitten. Next couple days are supposed to be warmer; when the salt's off the road I'll turn her around to face the sun and keep those batteries charged!

(I found my batteries are Interstate 6TL's from Nov. 2007, should be pretty good for a while I'd think).

(oh, and I remembered to open the air tanks afterwards!)

 

[Beerslayer]

Here are a couple of methods I use that have not been mentioned yet, and include a couple of my favorites since they involve FIRE!

1. Raise the hood and throw a moving blanket over the motor. This will trap all that nice heat your 600watt block heater is making. Close the hood and attach a tag on the fuel shutoff to remind yourself to pull the blanket before starting.

2. Warm your motor from underneath; stick a length of stove pipe with a 90 pointing up under the motor and poke a propane weed burner in the other end of the pipe. 20 minutes of that will warm it up real nice.

3. Pull the air filter and have someone hold either a
a. Burning rag soaked with diesel
b. Propane torch

near the intake while you crank it. Better yet, handle the fire yourself since it is your truck. This method works every time, AND it involves FIRE.

Standard cautions and disclaimers about using fire around potentially flammable things apply

Edit: It is also worth checking the valve lash. If the valves are too tight it could affect starting.

 

[Lax]

Okay guys, here is the latest. I realized that when I try to start my deuce that after cranking it for about 15- 20 seconds (even with the block heater on all night) I get a single puff of white smoke from the exhaust. And since I need to keep cranking for close to 30-40 seconds until I give up or I get someone to give it a shot of starting fluid about every 15-20 seconds I get a single puff of white smoke but nothing else. Does this sound right to you guys?

I have tried two bottles of Diesel 911 in the tank, a 600 watt block heather and a installed flame heater but still she WILL NOT fire below 30 degrees without starting fluid. What the he%# is going on with this thing? .

How about the Fuel Delivery setting/screw?? I have tried with the peddle held to the floor while cranking and my foot off the peddle. Neither works any better then the other. I m pulling my hair out on this one. There has got to be a simple cheap/free fix to this. Once it starts it runs great! Thanks guys.

 

[jwaller]

you need to pull your intake elbow with flame heater off the truck and verify that it is working. bjorn did this on a table with video. that is the only way to really know that it is working.

I am thinking that with my truck it needs a new flame heater fuel filter bc it is helping when cold but it used to work better.

with your battery switch on and engine off do you get good fuel flow from the fuel filter drains (all 3 of them)?

 

[ken326@yahoo.com]

still sounds like a fuel problem to me otherwise it would be smoking white smoke the whole time your trying to start it.

 

[Lax]

JWaller,
I have a feeling it is fuel so your filter idea may be the trick but that would be way to easy, and cheap. If I recall there are drain plugs on the tree fuel filter bases. How should I should I check. Just see if the fuel pump is sending out a real stream of fuel or should it be slowly pumped? How much fuel should I prepare for? Is there any trick to it. Just check one at a time? It would be great if this worked. I will check my flame heater too. Do they actually work? It never has since I had it installed a few years ago. What a waste of money that was. Thanks.