SINCGARS available

[Wile E. Coyote]

Mike Murphy has 1st generation SINCGARS radios for sale described as 'very used' but in good working condition for $779 bucks. These appear to be the RT-1439 variants according to the photo (i.e. non-ICOM), but I doubt you'll ever beat the price if you want to take a step up from the VRC-12 generation and into something with a keypad. Link here:

U.S. ISSUE COMMUNICATIONS EQUIPMENT AND RELATED ITEMS

(Usual caveats apply - i.e., no, they're not mine, no I don't get a kickback for mentioning it on SS...but for a little more than you'd spend on a good RT-524 or RT-246 it seemed worth a mention.)

 

[velociT]

Verrrry interesting...

Any license needed for operating one?

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

They'd only really be operable on the 6 meter ham band (50-54 Mhz) by a licensed amateur radio operator, legally speaking, as the equipment would never meet FCC type approval even if you were licensed to operate on a commercial frequency. Having said that...I've been on more than one ex-military convoy with comms providing movement and traffic control outside of the 6 meter band by people who knew their way around a radio from time-in. The world didn't end. Just as easy to go get an amateur radio license and do it legally though.

 

[Alredneck]

Are the lil black boxes available for cyrpto! I seriously doubt even the FCC can crack freqeuncy hop on a radio with a fill in it?

Single channel plain text most likely if they moniter those wave lengths, but would they think its military chatter or civys having fun? Also they would have to know the time to sync theirs to.

That sounds more where the NSA with all their tech gizmos come in! Oh wait thats subbed out to private commercial contracts these days! What was i thinking!

 

[Yaivenov]

From what I read on there those SINCGARS being offered don't support frequency hopping. Materiale capable of such action is highly controlled. You'd probably be hard pressed to get the crypto box (let alone one with any keys loaded) as well.

 

[maddawg308]

The encryption modules have been removed in all available SINCGARS radios to the public. If you are caught operating any radio with encryption like that found in these radios, you're in for a treat. As in, I doubt you'll see the light of day in the room they will put you in underneath NSA.

 

[bulldog_mack13]

The black boxes to encrypt them with dont mount inside or on the radio itself, ill stop now for OPSEC as the box and what it does/how it works is classified. But boxes also are changed daily,weekly or whatever the man comes up with. They will be a nice plain text radio to play with in MV's . I want one but not for that much. - Jay

 

[Alredneck]

Thats what I was thinking the black box is a controlled item so basically you just have a plain old transceiver. Some of the singars that link went to did support FH. The older radios ( older than PRC 116s ) had a different way of filling them for crypto. ( that was before my time we always had the black box) Still neat but for the money I would just mount a ham in my vehicle for long range commo, CB or GRMS for up close.

 

[bulldog_mack13]

Id just like a shell of one Alredneck for looks even though the A3 I have is fully wired up fromt antenna to sincgars mount. Im one for looks , someday when more than one person near me(if ever) has one id like a working one. But Im not paying almost 800 bucks for me to talk to myself. - Jay

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

The black boxes to encrypt them with dont mount inside or on the radio itself, ill stop now for OPSEC as the box and what it does/how it works is classified. But boxes also are changed daily,weekly or whatever the man comes up with. They will be a nice plain text radio to play with in MV's . I want one but not for that much. - Jay

No OPSEC issues. Info is all over the net - lots on Wikipedia - and even the NSA site had a bunch of info too at one point.

Early SINCGARS like the ones Mike has (RT-1439 model) used the same external KY-57 VINSON units that the VRC-12 family used. KY-57s and their associated cabling have been turning up for sale in a few places, though they've been demilled by removal of the cicruit cards and sometimes cutting of the ribbon cables. You'll find the odd KY-99 around as well. They make a nice display piece with either early SINCGARS or VRC-12 series stuff - especially with all the fat cabling etc.

Newer SINCGARS are the RT-1523 ICOM models, with internal COMSEC. Bascially that means that the function previously performed by the external KY-57 is now performed internally with a card. When the radios are sold off (and yes, it happens) they pull the KY-57/COMSEC cards but generally *not* the card(s) that control hopping, as hopping itself is exists out there in the commercial world too (though is illegal for use by amateurs on the amateur bands as things stand, even for experimental purposes.)

We're on RT-1523G model now, which is the latest in the smaller ASIP format SINCGARS that started with the RT-1523E model. I've seen larger-format SINCGARS for sale up to and including RT-1523B - legally, too - and sensibly given that anything that's to be learned from the radios would've been learned by foreign intelligence services looooong ago (i.e., the parts manuals etc. have been available on LOGSA as unrestricted distribution for years.) If you did a time fill and a TSK fill etc. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't hop, but I highly doubt more than a handful of people would try - and even then they'd be talking to themselves.

 

[bulldog_mack13]

Im with you on the talking to yourself part ha ha. Anyone have one that doesnt work I can use or a shell of one? Now that im on that kick. -Jay

 

[emmado22]

Those are some WELL USED radios. I've never seen radios with such worn paint, which means ALOT of use.

 

[maddawg308]

If all you want is something that looks the part, I'm sure these radios will be good enough - spray a new coat of paint and install in your truck. But a serious user of high-end radio equipment is going to spring the extra $1K for the nice units he has.

Mike Murphy is a great guy to deal with, if he doesn't have it, chances are noone else does either. But he knows what his gear is worth, and if you don't have the cash for it, someone else will.

I bought a PRC-47 set, complete in the transit case, brand new with all the accessories, for $600 shipped CA to VA a couple years back. Screaming deal, you'd be hard pressed to find it elsewhere for cheaper. But the higher end stuff requires a 2nd mortgage. I've wanted a PRC-104 for a while, but for $2100-2900 complete, I'll have to wait. Just my two cents.

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

Are the lil black boxes available for cyrpto! I seriously doubt even the FCC can crack freqeuncy hop on a radio with a fill in it?

Single channel plain text most likely if they moniter those wave lengths, but would they think its military chatter or civys having fun? Also they would have to know the time to sync theirs to.!

To join a net you'd need the unique NET ID, usually be within a second of their fill time, have the same hopset etc. -- not something anyone would be able to guess randomly. A spectrum analyzer could tell you which frequencies have hop activity on them but still wouldn't tell you which frequencies belonged to which hopset/net in an area with multiple radios and radio nets operating. I'm sure dedicated devices exist for such a purpose out there in espionage and counter-espionage world, but this is probably where it would be wise to shut up.

People get confused a bit about the purposes of hopping in SINCGARS to begin with. There's two levels of security in SINCGARS and similar radios: TSEC and COMSEC. TSEC is "Transmission Security": mainly, resistance to jamming and ensuring your transmission goes from A to B with the least chance of being intercepted by unauthorized C, D and E. It's not intended to provide any level of secrecy or high-level security to WHAT is being transmitted though. That's where COMSEC comes in.

COMSEC is "Communications Security" which, for want of a better term, scrambles what is being transmitted. We used to do that on a single wideband voice channel by hooking up something like a KY-57 to a single-channel radio like an RT-524 or prick 77 which gave you scrambling of what's being said - but being carried on a single channel made it very prone to squelch capture and other jamming measures. ("Jamming" = "Electronic Countermeasures" -- SINCGARS employs the hopping as "ECCM" which is "Electronic Counter-Countermeasures"; as in, that which counteracts the effects of jamming.)


Would anyone like FCC know the difference between an authorized user of some voice channel or not - especially if proper voice procedure were being followed? I wouldn't know. But one official type once told me in a wink-wink, nudge-nudge fashion that you'd pretty much be left alone "if you don't make a nuisance of yourselves..." But that's what HE said in one jurisdiction, where the one in charge of your local mob might hold a very different opinion (and confiscate your equipment - which they can do too - especially if they're 21 years old and embarking on a new career they frequently mistake for a Mission From God.)

Good radio users of everything from CB to FRS to Marine VHF to their assigned commercial channels on logging roads etc. always listen out for awhile on the channel to make sure they're not interfering with anyone else and "making a nuisance of themselves." It is also handy to have a scanner book or favourite website covering the frequencies in your area to see exactly what is used legally and by whom. For example, when you're setting up an ex involving comms you're supposed to see if there's any likelihood of interference with civilian comms in or near the frequency set you're supposed to draw channels from, and pick the ones with the least chance of interfering. One individual didn't do that once and was responsible for 35 watts jamming the local McDonalds drive-thru with CP traffic back in the VRC-12 days. There's the very definition of "making a nuisance of yourselves..."

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

Maddawg:

"Mike Murphy is a great guy to deal with, if he doesn't have it, chances are noone else does either. But he knows what his gear is worth, and if you don't have the cash for it, someone else will."

Agreed wholeheartedly. Dealt with Mike for years and he's first-rate. You're also dead-right about the "someone else will" as he regularly sells out of the high-priced stuff in a blink (reference those SINCGARS RT-1523B units he's now sold out of at $2195 eaches.)

I've had my eyes on one of those PRC-104Bs for a long time too! Too bad my pocketbook's a couple of laps behind.

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

Im with you on the talking to yourself part ha ha. Anyone have one that doesnt work I can use or a shell of one? Now that im on that kick. -Jay

Shells show up on Ebay from time to time - though having said that I've not seen one for about two years. They're just about always missing their top covers for some reason. Look very carefully at the pics when they come up, too, as the last couple I can remember look as though they'd spent some time at the bottom of the ocean in the 141st Davy Jones Battalion.

VAAs (vehicle adapters) show up for them all the time too - and usually fairly reasonably. I got one with the 50W amp and everything for something like $20 once. (When you shop for those watch the model numbers as some will accept certain radio model chassis and some won't - or won't without doing some mods. )

 

[cjtroutt]

I stay with my alinco dt135 with dtmf chip it work for me.

 

[Mos68x]

Interesting info, regardless of being legal or not I would love to have one that could, would, and did FH.