Soft top from scratch

[tobyS]

I'm unlikely to use the Cordura and ballistic nylon myself. I can see that it may be preferred material for many uses on our MVs.

Are they materials that you have used Bulldogger? Do they work with adhesives? Could you make the axle boot to glue (a seam) on? Velcro?


Back to the soft top... I was thinking of cost savings that a single larger tarp would have, doubling it. I expect to be using sleeping mats for insulation. I read that some tarps that are treated heavily, can give off bad odors for a long time.

A heavy painters tarp is not treated or dyed, but I read, takes dies and treatments well and is the base canvas in the heavier weight that is treated for water resistance.

If I buy treated canvas with beeswax, can I glue the seams? That bothers me

I would rather purchase the dyed (OD) but untreated materials because I intend to rely on the glue. Two of the 8'x10' would do it.

Untreated materials can be died and painted (some), so this would be an opportunity to make it camo with reactive dies or rit, before the outer waterproof is applied, if one wants camo.

I've watched several videos of treating the (dyed and painted) canvas with beeswax, mixed with boiled linseed oil and turpentine and putting it on with a heat gun and iron. Do I want the inner liner to be treated canvas. Probably not.

How do adhesives/glues work with treated materials that have beeswax base if I started with treated materials? Can the treated canvas be glued, because it seems it should be glued before it is treated and the treating should mainly be on the outside.

I noticed there are colored, untreated tarps available. Two 8x10's are my next purchase, I guess. I bought some strapping 1", 1 1/2" and 2", for some reinforcement and D rings.

 

[rustystud]

I told rustystud and I'll tell all here, if someone can get me one of the preferred boots to cut arpart and use as a pattern, I will see what I can do. I won't cut it up unless I'm sure I can do the job, or at least get it back together, of course.

If someone has a torn or worn one, but still enough there to see how it is made and shaped, I'm game to give it a whirl. No way its as hard as making my HMMWV soft slant backs with three and a half yards of material and 60 yards of stitching...

BDGR

I've been asking around. We will see what happens.

 

[frank8003]

Let us just crowd-fund one new boot.
rustystud can choose which dust boot, prefer zipper boot, send it to tobyS to figure it out and make one,
send it back to rustystud to install for trip to Alaska. I'm in.

 

[tobyS]

Bulldogger is in on the boot Frank, I'm just an interested bystander. He probably has more capability than I do with the Cordura or ballistic nylon. I have a big learning curve to overcome on the top with regular canvas.

Untreated canvas is now my material of choice. I'm finding that I can get a 10oz in hunter green ready made 8 x 10 but that Chicago Canvas offers a roll of died, untreated, 15 ounce, minimum 10 yards. The roll materials are 60" wide. So today I'll be talking to them and see if they can make my "near size" 8x10 with one (wide) seam. The 10' dimension is probably 2'+ too long, so plenty to work with there. With an 11-12 yard roll, I can get 4 pieces, 2 for the deuce, 2 for the M929.

A side note on waterproofing treatments. Several videos used beeswax and boiled linseed oil. A couple add in turpentine to thin and be a carrier which mostly evaporates out. Boiled linseed has polyurethane that leaves a top coat when it dries. On wood, using boiled with polyurethane leaves a surface coating that blocks further absorption. That may be good and may be bad....I'm just mentioning it since weatherproofing is further down on the list as an outside only treatment but must be planned for. On wood, I usually use tung oil to soak into the fibers further, so I may do some experiments with the treatments. Raw linseed does not have the poly component. UV is a consideration as well.

 

[Bulldogger]

I'm unlikely to use the Cordura and ballistic nylon myself. I can see that it may be preferred material for many uses on our MVs. Are they materials that you have used Bulldogger? Do they work with adhesives? Could you make the axle boot to glue (a seam) on? Velcro?
How do adhesives/glues work with treated materials that have beeswax base if I started with treated materials? Can the treated canvas be glued, because it seems it should be glued before it is treated and the treating should mainly be on the outside.

I have worked with Cordura quite a bit, having been making soft slant backs for over a year now. Yes, it responds well to adhesives, if a good solvent-based one is used. I have had good results with E6000, commonly available at craft stores, as well as Amazing Goop or it's siblings. Cordura sews relatively easily, though I wish I had a proper walking foot machine to help with keeping top and bottom fabric aligned automatically. I have not worked with ballistic nylon yet, though I may buy some just to take advantage of a good deal I see keep popping up. I suspect I will not be able to sew more than 3 layers of heavy ballistic (~1500D) with my souped up non-commercial Singer machine.

Cordura and Ballistic Nylon are MilSpec and original issue on many items of military equipment. I see them used on clothing and man portable gear mostly. I think some parachutes are made from lighter versions. Tarps, covers and tops seem to more often be made of heavy duty rubberized and treated canvas, as you note, though more recently they seem to be going to nylons. The linseed oil, turpentine and beeswax trick is how tents were waterproofed before the advent of polyurethane and synthetic silicone treatments became readily available. One finds it in many outdoors books from the 50's era. The oil/wax trick makes for VERY heavy fabric once finished, and yes, it will NOT accept adhesives after all that wax and oil. I would also worry about the oil/turpentine eating into and degrading adhesives put on virgin canvas as well. As an alternative, there are several good Marine fabric treatments that repel water very well that do not react to adhasives, mostly silicone/synthetic bases from what I've seen. They are not cheap, everything made for boats seems to be twice the price, and also they might need to be renewed annually or every few years, but they bead and repel water and dirt very well.

The oil/wax canvas route will yield a very appropriate looking cover if your vehicles are old, WWII/Korea/Nam issue, but on later vehicles to me the tops now look a bit more synthetic/plastic. Newer tops appear thinner and more flexible too. When I got my M101A trailer, the new spare cover given me was of synthetic material and it was half the weight of the canvas original, VERY flexible and MUCH easier to take on and off and otherwise move around.

If I were going to try to make a soft top for my HMMWV I would use 2 layers of Cordura 1000D with a layer of some kind of insulation/padding under and Starbright silicone treatment on top. I haven't had much experience with painting Cordura, but expect a good etching/bonding primer first would help versus just hitting it with ultra flat Rustoleum or something like that.

I will follow your efforts with great curiosity, as I may yet decide to make a replacement soft top for my HMMWV.

Bulldogger

 

[tobyS]

I don't mind heavy....with the cotton canvas anyway. In fact for sound and heat, it seems desired to me over lighter weight material.

I ordered samples of the canvas in untreated but died dark olive for the outside in #10 (15 oz) and #8 (18oz) canvas, then ordered sample of a cheaper black 12oz for the inside. I think (3) 1/2" foam sleeping mats is about right for the insulation. I might put a wanted ad here for some mats, I need 6 for both trucks.

I noticed the Cordura is available and their website has several different varieties. Which one do you use? Would you PM me with info/link/etc. on Ballistic material that you are mentioning? It sounds like a one time deal that I should check out.

Here is a photo of some waterproofing that I found at a surplus store, maybe you will know what it is. I've never used it but if it is good stuff, I'll go get some more at $3.00 a package (it's 2 part).

 

[rustystud]

Let us just crowd-fund one new boot.
rustystud can choose which dust boot, prefer zipper boot, send it to tobyS to figure it out and make one,
send it back to rustystud to install for trip to Alaska. I'm in.

I'm still asking around. When I find one I will send it on to "Bulldogger" . Hopefully he can make them up !
Your right Frank, I don't want to go on the Alaskan Adventure without good axle boots.

 

[gimpyrobb]

I have no problem "kicking in" to get him a boot. Let me know where to send funds to.

 

[Bulldogger]

I don't mind heavy....with the cotton canvas anyway. In fact for sound and heat, it seems desired to me over lighter weight material.
I ordered samples of the canvas in untreated but died dark olive for the outside in #10 (15 oz) and #8 (18oz) canvas, then ordered sample of a cheaper black 12oz for the inside. I think (3) 1/2" foam sleeping mats is about right for the insulation. I might put a wanted ad here for some mats, I need 6 for both trucks.
I noticed the Cordura is available and their website has several different varieties. Which one do you use? Would you PM me with info/link/etc. on Ballistic material that you are mentioning? It sounds like a one time deal that I should check out.
Here is a photo of some waterproofing that I found at a surplus store, maybe you will know what it is. I've never used it but if it is good stuff, I'll go get some more at $3.00 a package (it's 2 part).

I'll PM the fabric info, since it would mean an active auction link.

The waterproofing I have used is the spray on type, that looks like brush on. Probably better for a top that sits horizontal, but it would take a lot to cover. Read the coverage guidance for brush/roller and how many square feet it's supposed to cover. At least it's cheap, if #3.

The padding sounds like a good idea. Just give some room for stretch so you can get the sides attached.

BDGR

 

[tobyS]

Thanks BDGR, the cost of the ballistic black nylon in 1680D for the top layer was $59. I couldn't pass it up. I can easily make a 9x9 blank and have a 5" seam lap.

Plans on this project have changed to using ballistic nylon on the outer layer and a canvas inner layer with mat foam in between.

BDGR, Do you use a hot knife or fuse the nylon cut edge...or glue it? I watched a video of using pinking shears for cutting and making a good glue joint with exposed edges (not folding) on nylon.

Do you have any ideas for getting a drip edge at windows and front? I'm thinking a piece of galvanized steel...a duck bill kinda thing on front, that both the inner and outer layers could overlap and attach to, if it could slide in the track. Sides have to clear the window and attach + seal. Maybe I should be extending it out a little further with strategic metal strips. Across the front the materials could be riveted on, sandwiched between two layers of metal and folded up and over. It would add about 2" on the front at 45 degree drip edge. I can even see screwing the flat to the front window frame and get rid of the track, when it folds around it would all be covered.

The oil based Rustoleum rattle cans of camo flat should adhere fine to the nylon, using earth brown and forest green and black. Then the spray waterproofing above apply over that.

Again, thanks sharing the supplier and your knowledge BDGR.

 

[dustoff34]

Ok if i can chime in here. Been reading this and here thinking how about taking the non-treated canvas and coating it with type 4 CARC 383 Green??? Sitting here wondering will it crack or form on the threads and bond to the fabric? Thoughts..... Cause I have a line on current type 4 CARC Paint.

 

[Bulldogger]

Thanks BDGR, the cost of the ballistic black nylon in 1680D for the top layer was $59. I couldn't pass it up. I can easily make a 9x9 blank and have a 5" seam lap.
Plans on this project have changed to using ballistic nylon on the outer layer and a canvas inner layer with mat foam in between.
BDGR, Do you use a hot knife or fuse the nylon cut edge...or glue it? I watched a video of using pinking shears for cutting and making a good glue joint with exposed edges (not folding) on nylon.
Do you have any ideas for getting a drip edge at windows and front? I'm thinking a piece of galvanized steel...a duck bill kinda thing on front, that both the inner and outer layers could overlap and attach to, if it could slide in the track. Sides have to clear the window and attach + seal. Maybe I should be extending it out a little further with strategic metal strips. Across the front the materials could be riveted on, sandwiched between two layers of metal and folded up and over. It would add about 2" on the front at 45 degree drip edge. I can even see screwing the flat to the front window frame and get rid of the track, when it folds around it would all be covered.
The oil based Rustoleum rattle cans of camo flat should adhere fine to the nylon, using earth brown and forest green and black. Then the spray waterproofing above apply over that.
Again, thanks sharing the supplier and your knowledge BDGR.

I was typing that I haven't experience with ballistic nylon, but then I remembered I asked for samples a year ago. I've dug them out and find that the ballistic will fray if pinched and pulled at. It is not bad though, so I think if you fold and sew a 1/4" rollover it should hold up OK and it won't fray terribly while you're handling it. I think you can get away without adhesive to glue the edges. A hot knife would probably also work well, though I have not used them before.

The Cordura I work with does not fray at the edges. I do fold and sew edges for tidiness, much like mentioned above.

If I were doing it, I'd try to find some hard rubber/vinyl channel or v weatherstripping or something to glue/rivet in much the same place as the existing rain channel. I would expect galvanized steel to not hold up well. There must be some weatherstripping of some sort that would work, but I have not researched it extensively.

Personally I'd like a continuous channel all down each side, much like the OEM design, but with a little bigger channel if possible. My top barely catches the rain before filling up and losing the battle to channel it away from the doors.

I think I'd glue and rivet or stitch the channel on, with a Speedy Stitcher or similar heavy duty thread.

You didn't mention the side tabs that roll under the frame to fasten inside on the three little turnbuckles, I think that would be easy enough to pull off with an extra piece of fabric stitched at each door location, to the underside of the new top. How to make the grommets is a good question, as they are oval and I'm not aware of anyone who makes oval grommets. My factory fittings all over the soft top are vulcanized rubber impregnated into the canvas. I don't know how to do this economically at home. For my soft slant backs I designed and 3D printed the large rectangular grommets, but their mounts are very forgiving in terms of thickness, not like the small turnbuckles at all. I don't thin a printed plastic grommet would work. Perhaps there is a way to laminate several thicknesses of ballistic nylon impregnated with either super glue or Goop to give it some strength?

Having fun so far! Keep the ideas and questions coming.

Bulldogger

 

[Bulldogger]

Ok if i can chime in here. Been reading this and here thinking how about taking the non-treated canvas and coating it with type 4 CARC 383 Green??? Sitting here wondering will it crack or form on the threads and bond to the fabric? Thoughts..... Cause I have a line on current type 4 CARC Paint.

Dustoff, I painted some tan HMMWV doors coated with heavy factory paint to make them OD Green. It is NOT holding up well, and has crackled in many places especially the seams. I think your suspicion is correct, painting is going to be a learn-as-we-go. I would think CARC would be a similar disappointing outcome, but I have never painted with it myself. By the way, the paint I used was Rapco CARC replacement, not simple Krylon or other rattle-can stuff. It was costly and now it looks no better than WalMart rattle can paint.

BDGR

 

[tobyS]

Ok if i can chime in here. Been reading this and here thinking how about taking the non-treated canvas and coating it with type 4 CARC 383 Green??? Sitting here wondering will it crack or form on the threads and bond to the fabric? Thoughts..... Cause I have a line on current type 4 CARC Paint.

I used the Rustoleum flat (camo) oil based rattle-can on a seat and waterproofed over that. Without the waterproofing, it was like sandpaper....totally non skid. It looked and held up well, so I'm going to take my chances with the top. The dark forest is about a match for the 383 Green and the earth brown not far from the 383 brown. They even have black that I believe has the blue component that the FS black has. I'm thinking 2-4 cans of each...maybe.

I don't think there will be enough flexibility with the CARC paints and that cracking is inevitable with a hard surface paint. But I also would acknowledge that multiple coats of the paint and layers of canvas (maybe some glass cloth) could make a top that rivals the fiberglass and has it's own strength.

dustoff34, check out "reactive dies" for the non-treated.

This nylon has changed the coloring part of my project, but I would not hesitate to use the rustoleum rattle cans on non treated canvas. I'd start with the forest green and apply the brown and black. The canvas supplier Chicago Canvas confirmed that the 18oz is died, not treated, where most untreated, dyed, is only 12oz. The ballistic nylon is black, but I don't expect it to be flat or match like the camo black rattle can does.

The overhang on the front will protrude 1" in front of the window frame and have 2" that will be bent down at 30*, forming a drip edge at the front.

Those locking grommets on the side window (top) are available. I found them and when I find them again, I'll post a link. I'm thinking of an alternative there also that gets it out another inch or so. It would not be a trough, but if it were further out, might keep some from coming inside the door.

 

[rustystud]

I told rustystud and I'll tell all here, if someone can get me one of the preferred boots to cut arpart and use as a pattern, I will see what I can do. I won't cut it up unless I'm sure I can do the job, or at least get it back together, of course.

If someone has a torn or worn one, but still enough there to see how it is made and shaped, I'm game to give it a whirl. No way its as hard as making my HMMWV soft slant backs with three and a half yards of material and 60 yards of stitching...

BDGR

OK "Bulldogger" , I bought a front axle boot and when it arrives I'll send it to you.

 

[Bulldogger]

OK "Bulldogger" , I bought a front axle boot and when it arrives I'll send it to you.

Sounds good. I'm curious to meet one up close and think about how to improve upon it.

BDGR

 

[dustoff34]

The other night i was looking on the web at canvas. and came across a us company that makes heavy tarps. Has anyone thought about taking these to make cargo covers? The OD ones look close to the right color for the covers. sew in the rope pockets and punch the grommets, sew on the buckles on the top. i just don't know how the original stitching on them will line up?

 

[Jbulach]

Interesting ideas and info. Toby, good luck on your top, and “trying” to keep your thread on track!

 

[tobyS]

The skills needed for these various covers are the same so a bit OT will benefit us all, Jbulach.

I ordered enough of the ballistic nylon (BN) that is light weight, but very strong, almost opposite to the idea that heavy canvas would be stronger, better insulating to sound and temp.

For discussion....what about 3 layers, with the BN on the outside. Then use 2 layers of canvas + insulation. I can get 2 layers of 12oz for the price of a single of the 15 or 18 oz canvas (black).

I'm using a piece of 14 ga galvanized that mounts to the windshield frame. It will stick out 1" and then bend down 2" at 30*. A 3/4" strip will sandwich all materials on the underside, probably bolted with SS screws. Then the tops is folded back, covering all fasteners. It will provide the support to pull tight and get water further out, at least on the front.

I got some 2" nylon strap yesterday. I'll see how well it takes the Rustoleum rattle can camo paint.

 

[tobyS]

I hope the BN has similar property to the nylon strap. The nylon strap sample I painted likes the Rustoleum camo rattle can paint and does not try to make a hard surface or be brittle. I think it will make a very good UV protectant too.

Ordered enough canvas for 2 layers of the black 12 oz (4 pcs 3 yards each). Cost $88.