Sold a 1031, titling issues with new buyer, need advise.

[porkysplace]

Hey guys, i need a few 3rd party opinions and what better place to come?
I can see trouble brewing and im not sure how to proceed. I know what i think is fair, but id like to see what you think.
The new buyer is also on SS, so lets keep this friendly and work to find a fair solution.

Here is the scenario;
I buy CUCV from GovLiq, I never register it. To register these in Ca the total cost is about $700, and since i bought it for a friend and was waiting for him to pay me for it i just sat on it.
Well, "friend" flaked on me and never paid me for the truck so i put the truck on Ebay and sold it.
I have sold unregistered CUCV's & trailers to friends in Texas, Oregon, Michigan and Ca and i give them all my paperwork, a bill of sale from me to them, and there has never been a problem with registration.

Here is part of the description i wrote in Ebay
################################################

The plates pictured with the truck are not included.
The truck is not currently titled or registered. It will come with the documents i got when i bought it from the Government so you can take it to the DMV in your state to register it in your name. I have sold 3 trucks and 2 trailers to friends this way and there are no hang ups or surprises.

###################################################

The new buyer lives in Colorado, flys out to my place, pays for the truck and drives it 1300 miles home.
In Colorado the SF97 needs to be in his name, or the truck needs to be titled previously. The new buyer finds this out when he tries to register it at the DMV this morning.


Here is where the trouble lies.
For me to register it i am going to need the truck in Ca for the vehicle inspection, weigh it, and pay the approx $700 fee.
I have an inquiry into GovLiq about getting a new SF97 with his info on it, but i have a feeling they are going to tell me to take a hike.

With this being said, i have no problem doing the footwork, however the cost of transporting the vehicle back out to Ca, and the DMV fee's are not something i feel like volunteering to cover.

From my point of view i clearly state the the truck is not registered in the description.
"The plates pictured with the truck are not included.
The truck is not currently titled or registered. It will come with the documents i got when i bought it from the Government so you can take it to the DMV in your state to register it in your name. I have sold 3 trucks and 2 trailers to friends this way and there are no hang ups or surprises."
So i feel the buyer should check with their states laws to see what is required before buying.


However i can see the buyers point of view as well, i said that there will be no problem at your DMV based off my previous experiences. And with the truck as it currently sits, is not able to be driven on the road, so its kind of worthless to him.


So what do you guy think is the appropriate course of action for me to take?
I certainly dont want to create any bad-blood between me and the buyer, but i see a storm brewing on the horizon because of the Colorado DMV wrinkle, and the cost involved to iron that out.

Who ever you sold the truck to in michigan got lucky at the secratary of state office . If you lived in michigan it would be considered title jumping unless you have a dealers license , GL and the SF-97 transfered ownership to you . In michigan you are required to title it in your name before selling .


It really depends on california law as to wether you should have titled it before selling , it seems they would want their share of taxes on it ( which is why you didn't title it) . You state that it has no title or registration , but then you say you have all necessary paperwork to title ( somewhat misleading ).

The buyer should have checked into what his state required . but he was some what mislead also . So I would say your both equally at fault and what ever the outcome , neither of you will be happy . But it could have all been avoided by getting a title before selling or listing as a parts truck only .

 

[scarryy]

Hello All,

I am the buyer of this truck. Let me say this has been a very educational experience. Shark, and the rest of you are correct that I did not do enough homework on my end and I make no excuse for that. It is also correct that I would have been much more likely to do so, if I had not been reassured by the statement about how many times in various other states, that these documents were sufficient for title and registration. In no way does this mean that I feel I was tricked or misled. Yes, the seller most likely went against CA law to avoid paying sales tax on the truck, but I do not blame him for that (will not start anti government rant, let's just say I understand).

When I told shark about the DMV issues, he said to me that the truck would need to be in CA to be inspected before he could get a title. That is about a six day round trip at 55 mph, and about 750 in diesel. I understand that he did not accept my idea for a 2000 refund and call it a parts truck, and have no resentment about it. I still do not think it was an outrageous offer on my part, and hope no offense was taken on his part.

I will clearly state: in all aspects of this sale and delivery I have been treated very fairly, shark is a good guy, period.

He did make an offer to swing by while on a trip returning from Iowa and drive the truck back to CA, title it and return it. I was asked how we would handle diesel and DMV fees, and I responded that I did not feel they should be on me. These were text messages, so perhaps my brief response was interpreted as "I will not pay one penny". We never got to negotiating what we thought would be a fair split, and to be honest, my major concerns were additional wear and tear, but more importantly: how would we handle it if the engine or tranny blew while he was driving it. He also did not seem to be able to understand why I would feel uneasy about him having my money, my truck and all paperwork while I sit and wait 1300 miles away. After all, we have emailed and texted, and only spent an hour or less face to face. As they say, asking someone to "trust me" is the cry of a guilty soul. I am not trying to question his integrity here, just pointing out that I was being asked to take a lot on faith only.

To complicate matters, he is headed out of town for two weeks, left yesterday I believe.

So, after me saying I was not thrilled about the offer to return the truck to CA, he tells me he may be able to get a title without the truck. I will need to return the documents to him, and in my last email, I told him that I will do so. Yes, I have previously expressed concern about this, as I will be giving up the only tenuous legal claim I have to the truck, but I will make copies so OK. Of course I have not been told with absolute certainty that this will work, but it would be the best possible outcome, as I can see no reason for GL to reissue the docs in my name, especially two years after they sold him the vehicle and in light of the "title jumping" issues.

He has also offered me a refund, which I do think is extremely fair as he could certainly just tell me to FO. Possible variations of this include me returning the truck to him (still raises the issue of what if there is a major accident or failure on the trip), or me paying his way out and back. I told him I would prefer to buy him a plane ticket and pick up most of the fuel. I have not gotten a response to this offer as of today. I would prefer this as we could do our business here and the truck is his again on the drive back to CA. That said, I like the truck and would be disappointed to lose it.

I am also looking into other options, such as a bonded title (which will be very difficult as I have been told by people who have done it, and maybe moreso because of Colorado's requirement that a gov vehicle MUST be titled to the person it was first sold to before any subsequent transactions). I am also looking into out of state title agency deals. I will explore the links you guys provided as well to be sure I have checked out all of my options...

Well, that is where it stands, and you now have my perspective FWIW. I am waiting to hear from shark about sending him the docs and getting the CA title. When he responds, we will take it from there.

As I said, it has been educational. Whether buyer or seller, "kids don't let this happen to you"!

 

[wreckerman893]

I have bought a lot of vehicles from GL.....most of them deuces. Early on I never got the SF-97 since I knew some of them were going to be cut up or that I was only going to sell them with a Bill of Sale to someone in Alabama (can be done with a BOS here).

I now get a SF-97 on every vehicle since I don't want any issues like this to pop up.

It sounds like you guys are making every effort to resolve this as gentlemen.

Let's all hope it works out for both of you.

 

[bearboley]

I think if you sold the truck with the explanation that the truck could be titled with the paperwork you suppied and in fact the buyer couldn't . I think you should offer a refund with any cost the buyer may have in getting it home or get him a title at your expense.

 

[skark_burmer]

I think if you sold the truck with the explanation that the truck could be titled with the paperwork you suppied and in fact the buyer couldn't . I think you should offer a refund with any cost the buyer may have in getting it home or get him a title at your expense.

Lol, I've got a bridge I'll sell you!

 

[porkysplace]

Lol, I've got a bridge I'll sell you!

Does it come with a title

 

[scarryy]

Lol, I've got a bridge I'll sell you!

Not that I am asking for that, but very confidence-ispiring comment shark, especially since I haven't gotten a reply from you in two days.

Since you brought our business to the forum, I may as well ask you here: Any news regarding getting a CA title?

 

[rickf]

Scarryy, This does not mean it was right but it is true that a lot of trucks are sold this way so I do not think there was any malice there. I was also going to say I thought you two were handling this quite well and was going to admonish those that are trying to get you two to fight and then you throw in that little barb in the end there. I think the seller has gone far, far out of his way to try to accommodate you in this deal. You were both wrong so split the return cost, give him the truck back and be done with it.

Rick

 

[scarryy]

Just spoke to Shark on the phone (he called). All is well and any hurt feelings have been resolved on both sides. I have been reassured that we are in fact, where my first post described. He is on the road, I will send him the paperwork and he will pursue CA title on his return home. If CA DMV says no, a refund will be given in a gentlemanly fashion under terms suitable for us both. As I said before, Shark is a class act. I am comfortable that we will resolve this amicably either way, we are both older and wiser for it. I thank you all for your input and opinions, whether I remain the owner of this 1031 or get a different CUCV later, I look forward to being a part of the SS community.

 

[bearboley]

Lol, I've got a bridge I'll sell you!

I don't find any humor in it, and the buyer is taking it a lot eaiser than me. I think if it was not resolved in short order the powers that be would be involed. The truck was sold with the understanding that the paperwork would get the truck titled. I would want my money all of it or the title. No humor in that is there?

 

[ryan77]

Unless you bought it from ELVIS always get a clear title! In the sellers name! If not walk away, There has been one story after another lately!!! And in the end most people get burned and have a yard ornament!!!

 

[scrambled]

Does the SF97 have govliquidation as the purchaser or is it Skark? If it is Skark, he can reassign the sf97 to the new purchaser. If not, it might be worth a call to govliq to see if they would issue a reassignment.

 

[rickf]

I don't find any humor in it, and the buyer is taking it a lot eaiser than me. I think if it was not resolved in short order the powers that be would be involed. The truck was sold with the understanding that the paperwork would get the truck titled. I would want my money all of it or the title. No humor in that is there?

Stop trying to stir the pot.

 

[bearboley]

Stop trying to stir the pot.

I was not stirring at all. People work hard for their money and expect a square deal. All I am saying is man up and make it right. The op wanted 3rd party opinions and thats my opinion.Where I am from its called title jumping and it is illegal. He already paid the sales tax on it when he bought from GL so thats not the issue. I bet the money is spent so a refund is out of the question. The way I see it is the seller got his money and the buyer is for a lack of a better term screwed. If the truck was sold as scrap or stated it did not have a title thats one thing, but it was stated It had all the paperwork needed to obtain a title and the buyer bought on that, well guess what oops guess not seller needs to produce a title at his cost or refund the money for the truck. Deals get messed up and there is misunderstanding but the measure of a man is his actions to correct the problem so all parties are satisfied.

 

[rickf]

They are working this out peacefully on their own now and you are trying to rile them up. That is stirring the pot. How about for once we let one run it's coarse quietly?

Rick

 

[bearboley]

I will quietly walk away,far away.

 

[86m1028]

I was not stirring at all. People work hard for their money and expect a square deal. All I am saying is man up and make it right. The op wanted 3rd party opinions and thats my opinion.Where I am from its called title jumping and it is illegal. He already paid the sales tax on it when he bought from GL so thats not the issue. I bet the money is spent so a refund is out of the question. The way I see it is the seller got his money and the buyer is for a lack of a better term screwed. If the truck was sold as scrap or stated it did not have a title thats one thing, but it was stated It had all the paperwork needed to obtain a title and the buyer bought on that, well guess what oops guess not seller needs to produce a title at his cost or refund the money for the truck. Deals get messed up and there is misunderstanding but the measure of a man is his actions to correct the problem so all parties are satisfied.

The way I see it is.....
If the seller provided the sf97 ( in his name or not) & a bill of sale,
The sale is COMPLETE.
If the buyer can't get it titled he's just too LAZY.
GL does the same thing.

The buyer needs to get up & do alittle work on his own to get it titled.
I don't see how the seller did anything wrong.
The buyer should have done his homework on getting it titled in his state.

I thought cally was bad, a few years ago we tried to get a semi registered in Colorado. I even drove the truck with title out there & still couldn't get it titled there, so we kept it titled in Texas.

SF97 = GOVERNMENT TITLE PERIOD.

 

[jdknech]

i just delt with this same thing in indiana, i went to the BMV and very calmly(i tend to get PO'd just walking into a BMV...lol) explaned what happened, and that there was NEVER a title to the truck, and asked how to go about getting one.. they handed me a stack of paperwork that me(buyer) and the seller both had to fill out and sign every copy together. i had to have the state police come inspect it, and sign off that it wasnt stolen, and send everything off the the main office.. it was a looooong prosses, but wasnt super expinsive ($60) i would check and see if your state has the same type of prosses for out of state tranfers from states not requiring titles on older stuff...

 

[Ken_86gt]

I will add my opinion as well- I see no deliberate intent to defraud the buyer. Whenever you buy a vehicle as private party, especially cars, it is always buyer beware. There is no warranty. The buyer should have verified everything was acceptable prior to paying any money- it appears that this was the case. I don't think you can come back after the sale and make a complaint since there was no warranty and no obvious intent to defraud.

Is this any different from a vehicle blowing the engine on the way home from the sale? I think not. It is unfortunate that it happened. But it is now the buyers problem.

 

[buck]

It appears they are well on there way to resolving the issue, but anyone who's been on this site for a while has to have seen many horror stories of FS97's in someone else's name. Titleing comes down to how easy your state makes it (I envy those who live in those states), and the quality of the dmv office you're dealing with. In my area in MN one dmv will tell you it can't be done, and another one will push it right through no problem. Seems to me if the office your're dealing with is knowledgable, savy and willing to do it, it can be done. Problem is they are usually lazy and a bit above going the extra mile for someone. Hope all turns out well. Good kuck.