Spicer 3053A shifting problems

[Jeremy W]

Hello all, first post here. Great forum!

So I do not actually own a Deuce, however I would like to someday. My 3053a is actually in a 1971 f250 highboy crew cab project i've been working on the past 6 months. It has an Isuzu 6bd1-T turbo diesel engine in it. I wanted a 5spd OD transmission and with the motor having an SAE #3 bellhousing, the Spicer 3053A was my choice. I had heard that this transmission shifts really smoothly and is a generally good transmission. So I started looking for one. I ended up finding one that I was told was either a gov refurb or possibly even brand new.

So I recently got it all buttoned up and rolling and the shifting just does not seem right. Granny first works great, but with 2nd gear from a stop when trying to put it into gear it just doesn't want to go into gear. I have to let the clutch out slightly until it starts to grab a little and dip it again then it will go in. Then, it will go into 3rd just fine (but it usually doesn't want to come OUT of 3rd when slowing for a stop. again letting the clutch out slightly will allow me to take it out of 3rd)
5th OD is the really annoying one. It will not stay in 5th gear. Shifts into gear just fine. But it just slowly slips out of gear. I can watch the shift knob as soon as it is engaged and under load it just slowly moves towards the neutral position and then pop....out of gear.

The funny thing is, I really do think this transmission is brand new. I can't see any indications of wear anywhere on it.

I would greatly appreciate any help you guys could give.
thanks for your time.
-Jeremy

 

[topo]

I can not think of any thing unless you added a power take off and it needs more shims .

 

[gringeltaube]

Hi and Welcome to Steelsoldiers!

1) Hard to shift into 2nd from a complete stop: This is quite normal; you are not the only one with that issue. Read this thread and see what others suggested.
2) Slipping out of 5th: Not that common for these transmissions; not at least if all parts involved were really new. Here is one thread about this subject. Also this post...

Have you pulled the top already, to take a look inside? Eventually shoot some close-up pics.


G.

 

[gimpyrobb]

I agree with G.

Also, what lube oil did you use in the trans? Many put gear oil in it, though it was designed for 10wt(non detergent) oil. Many report better shifting with 10wt.

 

[m16ty]

Back when I was selling deuces, I would show a truck to a prospective buyer that was used to modern manual transmissions and they would claim there was something wrong with the trans and couldn't shift it when I let them drive. I'd move over into the drivers seat and shift it fine.

I'm not saying there isn't anything wrong with your trans because the popping out of 5th is definitely a issue but even when in tip top shape, these things don't shift as smooth as a modern trans. The 3053 does shift very smooth for a 1950s designed trans.

 

[JasonS]

I agree with G.

Also, what lube oil did you use in the trans? Many put gear oil in it, though it was designed for 10wt(non detergent) oil. Many report better shifting with 10wt.

Assuming you meant 40/50 weight? I read some anecdotal information on ATHS that the engine oil really is better than gear lube because it flows better at lower temperatures. NO idea if this is correct...

 

[frank8003]

............. and under load it just slowly moves towards the neutral position and then pop....out of gear. I would greatly appreciate any help you guys could give.
-Jeremy

Transmission gets Traveler (tractor supply) brand SAE40 non-detergent oil the red label. Transfer case gets that same SAE40 non-detergent oil. Or one may buy the Mag 1 on line and that will work good too. Take out whatever is in there and put new oil. Drive it around a while. Use of this in my transmission/transfer gears alleviated my problems. There is many many threads on this subject.

 

[gringeltaube]

Transmission gets Traveler (tractor supply) brand SAE40 non-detergent oil the red label. ....... Take out whatever is in there and put new oil. Drive it around a while........

I can assure you this: even the best- or the worst- possible lubricant will not cure the OP's main problem, that is preventing 5th from slipping out of gear.

.................... I can watch the shift knob as soon as it is engaged and under load it just slowly moves towards the neutral position and then pop....out of gear. .........

I say, at least one part in there is worn or faulty and must have been overlooked at the time of rebuild - if this really is such a new/rebuilt unit.

The bad news: the parts in question can only be inspected after pulling out the mainshaft assembly.
The good: the mainshaft comes out with the transmission still bolted in place. Besides some common wrenches you may need a bearing puller for the #6308 output bearing.



G.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Assuming you meant 40/50 weight? I read some anecdotal information on ATHS that the engine oil really is better than gear lube because it flows better at lower temperatures. NO idea if this is correct...

Transmission gets Traveler (tractor supply) brand SAE40 non-detergent oil the red label. Transfer case gets that same SAE40 non-detergent oil. Or one may buy the Mag 1 on line and that will work good too. Take out whatever is in there and put new oil. Drive it around a while. Use of this in my transmission/transfer gears alleviated my problems. There is many many threads on this subject.

Yeah, this.

I looked it up at one point, searching google it should be found pretty easy. Yesterday was a long day!

 

[Westech]

When I switched from gear oil to 40W ND motor oil shifting was a LOT better.

 

[frank8003]

I looked back and searched specifically about the 5th gear problem and got swamped with wonderful pictures, how to's, summations, great advice, and good ideas from those that been there done that.

look at post 49 in here:
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?70653-M35A2-transmission-problem/page2

If it was my truck in this situation I would follow the advice of gimpyrobb and gringeltaube, m-35tom among others. Don't forget the pictures when you come back and tell what you fixed.

 

[Jeremy W]

Hi and Welcome to Steelsoldiers!

1) Hard to shift into 2nd from a complete stop: This is quite normal; you are not the only one with that issue. Read this thread and see what others suggested.
2) Slipping out of 5th: Not that common for these transmissions; not at least if all parts involved were really new. Here is one thread about this subject. Also this post...

Have you pulled the top already, to take a look inside? Eventually shoot some close-up pics.


G.

Thanks for the welcome gringeltaube!

I can live with the hard shift into 2nd. I'm already starting to get used to it.

After reading the links you posted about 5th gear, it seems my problem is different. My 5th gear actually engages under deceleration and only under acceleration or load does it pop out. If i'm cruising a constant speed on flat ground, it will even stay in gear. But with even the slightest of incline it will move towards neutral.

I notice that in neutral and with the clutch engaged there is a good amount of gear clatter noise coming from within the transmission case. Is this normal?

Here are some pictures:

 

[Jeremy W]

I agree with G.

Also, what lube oil did you use in the trans? Many put gear oil in it, though it was designed for 10wt(non detergent) oil. Many report better shifting with 10wt.

I used Lucas Synthetic 75w90 gear oil.
I'm aware of the war on trans oil here and I hope not to start that in this thread. I'm thinking the chances are low that this would cause my 5th gear problem. I used what I could find at my auto parts store. I will probably try the 40wt though just to see.

 

[Jeremy W]

Back when I was selling deuces, I would show a truck to a prospective buyer that was used to modern manual transmissions and they would claim there was something wrong with the trans and couldn't shift it when I let them drive. I'd move over into the drivers seat and shift it fine.

I'm not saying there isn't anything wrong with your trans because the popping out of 5th is definitely a issue but even when in tip top shape, these things don't shift as smooth as a modern trans. The 3053 does shift very smooth for a 1950s designed trans.

Very true, some of these issues could be due to my being unfamiliar with this trans and its quirks. But like you said, 5th gear is definitely not right.

 

[Jeremy W]

Hi and Welcome to Steelsoldiers!

1) Hard to shift into 2nd from a complete stop: This is quite normal; you are not the only one with that issue. Read this thread and see what others suggested.
2) Slipping out of 5th: Not that common for these transmissions; not at least if all parts involved were really new. Here is one thread about this subject. Also this post...

Have you pulled the top already, to take a look inside? Eventually shoot some close-up pics.


G.

gringeltaube, I posted a reply with photos to you last night but I think it is not showing up due to me being a newb.

 

[gringeltaube]

gringeltaube, I posted a reply with photos to you last night but I think it is not showing up due to me being a newb.

OK, you couldn't see your pics posted because that post in particular was "on moderation" - which is now fixed... (Thanks to Warthog!)

Pics came out fine and clearly indicate that this is in fact a new- or "fresh" rebuilt transmission. Everything seems to be brand spanking new in there! Still, for some reason it doesn't want to stay in 5th, so something is not so nice as it looks...

Assuming everything is clean in there; no suspicious metal shavings to be found anywhere; no axial & radial play to be felt when rocking the input shaft and/or the mainshaft itself.... I suspect there is something wrong or out of specs, either with the 4th-5th synchronizer unit itself, or with the shift mechanism - somehow preventing the shift collar from fully engaging.

Questions: 1) Have you tried to manually shift the synchro hub- that is moving the collar back and forth, between 4th-; N- and 5th-position? It goes a little strong (needs to overcome the built-in spring action) but should be doable using both hands.
2) With the top on the workbench, when moving the shifter, can you feel a very positive spring action from the poppet riding on the shift rail, when coming in and out of the notches? (see TM 9-2520-246-34-1, Jan81; page 2-83)
3) With both, the synchro and the shifter in N-position, when you place the top back on the transmission, does everything line up well? (We want to make sure that the shift fork isn't bent or somehow misplaced towards the front of transmission!)

If nothing evident then the next step would be pulling the MS and inspecting: 1) the dogs and cavity inside 5th gear; 2) the condition of the 14 (roller)bearings inside the input shaft, also their journal(s). 3) the condition of the sleeve where 5th gear rides on.


And don't forget to take pics of everything!


G.

 

[m-35tom]

first, and this is almost certainly not the case, but does your engine turn counter clockwise looking at the flywheel? the spicer 3*** is a direction specific transmission. second are you positive the pilot bearing is correct with no side play on shaft? if those answers are yes you could have a bad or worn 5th gear, the dogs are hard to see until you take it apart. since these parts are very cheap i would just replace the syncro and the gear.

the shift forks do not hold 2,3,4,5 in gear, it is a function of design in the 2/3 hub and the spline on front of the mainshaft. the tendency should be for 5th to engage further under load so what you have is very unusual.

 

[Jeremy W]

OK, you couldn't see your pics posted because that post in particular was "on moderation" - which is now fixed... (Thanks to Warthog!)

Pics came out fine and clearly indicate that this is in fact a new- or "fresh" rebuilt transmission. Everything seems to be brand spanking new in there! Still, for some reason it doesn't want to stay in 5th, so something is not so nice as it looks...

Assuming everything is clean in there; no suspicious metal shavings to be found anywhere; no axial & radial play to be felt when rocking the input shaft and/or the mainshaft itself.... I suspect there is something wrong or out of specs, either with the 4th-5th synchronizer unit itself, or with the shift mechanism - somehow preventing the shift collar from fully engaging.

Questions: 1) Have you tried to manually shift the synchro hub- that is moving the collar back and forth, between 4th-; N- and 5th-position? It goes a little strong (needs to overcome the built-in spring action) but should be doable using both hands.
2) With the top on the workbench, when moving the shifter, can you feel a very positive spring action from the poppet riding on the shift rail, when coming in and out of the notches? (see TM 9-2520-246-34-1, Jan81; page 2-83)
3) With both, the synchro and the shifter in N-position, when you place the top back on the transmission, does everything line up well? (We want to make sure that the shift fork isn't bent or somehow misplaced towards the front of transmission!)

If nothing evident then the next step would be pulling the MS and inspecting: 1) the dogs and cavity inside 5th gear; 2) the condition of the 14 (roller)bearings inside the input shaft, also their journal(s). 3) the condition of the sleeve where 5th gear rides on.


And don't forget to take pics of everything!


G.

I finally had a chance to get in there and test out your suggestions.

It definitely shifts from 4th into N then into 5th without issues manually with the cover off. There is definitely spring action here too and it takes some effort to get it out of 5th again.

There is also a definite spring action with the shifting mechanism of the top when out of the truck. Everything "seems" as it should.

So I guess now I need to start tearing into it Ugh.

 

[Jeremy W]

first, and this is almost certainly not the case, but does your engine turn counter clockwise looking at the flywheel? the spicer 3*** is a direction specific transmission. second are you positive the pilot bearing is correct with no side play on shaft? if those answers are yes you could have a bad or worn 5th gear, the dogs are hard to see until you take it apart. since these parts are very cheap i would just replace the syncro and the gear.

the shift forks do not hold 2,3,4,5 in gear, it is a function of design in the 2/3 hub and the spline on front of the mainshaft. the tendency should be for 5th to engage further under load so what you have is very unusual.

I just checked and yes the flywheel does turn counter clockwise. Is this the same direction as the m35? or is mine spinning the wrong way?? I sure hope not.

The pilot bearing/bushing is what I initially thought the problem was. When I first installed the trans, the bushing I used had an inner diameter that was about .01" too large. After a 5 mile test drive I pulled the whole works out again and had a friend machine a new bushing that is now within .002" so that is definitely not the problem. I wanted to use a bearing, but was not able to find one that had the correct ID and OD.

 

[Jeepsinker]

It would make sense for it to push itself out of 5th if it was spinning the wrong way.