Survey...... "oil line of death 3116" (governor oil feed line)

[chucky]

You just have to setup and account. I paid $21.00, new in the Cat wrapper. Just setup a login, your address etc and the prices will update. I ordered filters for $6.00 too.

ok i will try that thanks

 

[Reworked LMTV]

I just put that part on yesterday. It's genuine CAT. After examining it and how it fits, I am going to replace both fitting at each end. I am talking to CAT this AM. The O rings appear flattened / worn down. Metric O rings did not fit theses parts well. Possibly SAE. Nevertheless, I am realizing that these O rings may have more than one function. I theorize that, when new, these O rings provide and seal AND reduce transmitted vibration. As the O rings age, this diminishes and more vibration is transmitted to the tube. Curiously, the ends near the fitting were rusted at the solder joint. The rest of the tube is spared of rust. Is rust the real issue? Could the solder joints resonate and lead to cracks and failure ? Are the end fittings collectors of h2o, leading to the same rust issue? If so, apply WD 40 or encapsulate with 3M 2228 Scotch Moisture Sealing Electrical Tape, 1 in x 10 ft x 0.65 in? This heavy rubber might cure both issues. I do note that the tape is only rated to 190 F. This could be an issue.

Possible electrolysis issue? Not sure.

My other question is this: Does the proposed stainless braided brake line fix change the pressure of the oil? Is the I.D. the same as the OEM line?

Sadly, removal of the line was difficult, and I won't be able to Magnaflux, since both ends twisted.

ok i will try that thanks

 

[Ronmar]

I don't think the flex line will appreciably change oil pressure or flow as long as the bend radius is not too tight...

Once the O-rings are under compression, I don't see them offering much dampening surrounded by the rigid fitting.

Corrosion on the pipe could be a weakening issue, the heat from the ends being soldered on could have also effected the hardness of the metal in that area, making it more brittle and prone to fracture. It is an overhung structure(diving board) and will be more prone to vibration. Adding any weight to it(tape or deadening material) might make the issue worse(fat guy on diving board). IMO the best way to dampen this is to attach the middle of the loop to a bracket attached to the head(diving board turned into a bridge)...

 

[Reworked LMTV]

Why would you want to connect it to the head? You want that portion as sound dead as possible. Connecting to the head will increase the intensity of the vibration. I'd anchor off something else and dampen the clamp inside with butyl rubber.

I don't think the flex line will appreciably change oil pressure or flow as long as the bend radius is not too tight...

Once the O-rings are under compression, I don't see them offering much dampening surrounded by the rigid fitting.

Corrosion on the pipe could be a weakening issue, the heat from the ends being soldered on could have also effected the hardness of the metal in that area, making it more brittle and prone to fracture. It is an overhung structure(diving board) and will be more prone to vibration. Adding any weight to it(tape or deadening material) might make the issue worse(fat guy on diving board). IMO the best way to dampen this is to attach the middle of the loop to a bracket attached to the head(diving board turned into a bridge)...

 

[Ronmar]

Vibration isn't necessarily a problem as long as all the parts move together. I believe it is the independent movement that is killing this hardline. This horseshoe shaped line creates an overhung mass like a diving board. If that mass at the end of the diving board can move independent of the rest of the structure, it tries to bend back and forth. Since it is a lever, it concentrates force at the other end of the lever where the structure becomes stronger/resists movement, which is where the tube meets the fitting, or the diving board meets the mount on the side of the pool. If this movement is severe enough, it fatigues the material and it eventually fractures. Diving boards also wear out, and ones left in service too long fail where the board meets the mount, ref: Americas funniest home videos... Or put another way, I have never broken a wrench at the handle. They always break at the socket/head end(or the hardware does)...


I mentioned the other lines on this engine don't seem to fail in the LMTV. A point I should have also brought up is that most run from A to B(form a bridge), and not from A, out and back to B which is nearly adjacent to A(forms a diving board)... By tying the middle of the loop to the head, you force it to fly in formation with the rest of the engine, and drastically reduce its tendency to move independently with the resultant tendency to fatigue/fracture near its attachment point.

The big unknown here is the level of forces being applied to the trucks that have failed. Did they have bad tires, wheels, hubs, diffs or shafts that attacked this weakest link till it failed? What level and frequency of input is a death sentence for this part? George suggested a camera to see how much it moves, I would like to put an accelerometer on the trucks that failed and compare them to other trucks that have not, to see if there is a difference in the force applied...

Or I can just support this line or put a hose in there and move on to other more pressing matters

 

[Reworked LMTV]

For those using the OEM line replacement and want to replace the straight and 90 degree fitting, the cost is about $20.50. I believe the part numbers are 6v8628 and 6v8647. I will double check those numbers tomorrow.

 

[Plasa]

Yesterday I change the steel pipe with a flexible one. When I loose the upper fitting I saw that the steel pipe was under tension, IMO because if you tight the fitting on the side of the governon the pipe tent to rotate versus the engine.

Maybe the mix of tension and vibration is the cause of the failure. If you don't want to use a flexible connection is better to tight the fitting on governor side an pay attention that the pipe is aligned on the upper fitting of the engine.

Christian

 

[frank8003]

Is there more than this one thread on this problem?

 

[coachgeo]

Is there more than this one thread on this problem?

yes!!! several threads on blown engines that relate this issue to reason behind blown engine

 

[frank8003]

I was just wondering why not just replace it with all SwageLok and everybody be done with it.
This stuff does not fail.
Used all over power plants, aircraft, and a Deuce.

 

[coachgeo]

I was just wondering why not just replace it with all SwageLok and everybody be done with it.
This stuff does not fail.
Used all over power plants, aircraft, and a Deuce.
View attachment 782793

what parts in that picture are swagelok?? see braided line and steel lines in the pic that look like average braided and steel lines.... so what makes swagelok better?

 

[frank8003]

Every part in that photo is Swagelok.
Look up the hose or anything there. I just use the best stuff, I have nothing to do with Swagelok.
htttps://www.swagelok.com/en/product/Hoses-and-Flexible-Tubing

OEM automobile manufactures have had to goto hoses like Swagelok.
They might not use Swagelok brand but they are using the same type hoses.

If the failure I have seen on these postings was Swagelok tube or the flexible tubing these guys would still have their engines working. The particular failure as described in these posts is using old school stuff for a 100% most critical application.
That is all I meant to say. fm

https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=partn...e-of-death-3116-quot-(governor-oil-feed-line)

 

[Awesomeness]

A lot of the suggestions/ideas being made here are not well informed. Solid tubes are better at most things (which is why they put it there in the first place). If your compressor isn't loose, and the tube isn't corroded, it's not likely to fail, and the metal tube is a good choice. The few instances we have of the metal tubes failing are probably symptoms of other problems (e.g. loose parts, corrosion, etc.), not the root cause, so simply inspecting the tube should be sufficient.

If you go to a flexible tube, you have to go to a considerably larger size to still flow the same amount (I think it's like 50% larger cross sectional area... not trivial). Engineers generally only use flexible hoses when you need articulation, very high vibration resistance (such as vibratory conveyors, not a balanced spinning assembly like an engine), or because of thermal expansion (large assemblies like a tire molding press grow/shrink quite a bit as they get hot/cold, which is why even if it is a solid tube it will probably have a zig-zag in it to allow expansion at that accordian-shaped point).

https://www.hoseandfittingsetc.com/our-blog/hose-v.-tube-assembly-in-hydraulic-systems

 

[Reworked LMTV]

I.D. diameter is was one of my concerns when the fix was documented. Using the documentation that you provided, it would appear that that the hydraulic hose as a more consistent I.D. The I.D.. on tubing appears to be more of a nominal number, varying significantly with O.D. Based on that info,, I'm also thinking about the temp ratings. Might have to check temp today.

I have both set ups. I will mount the flex today. Why? No O rings were supplies with the cat part. They appear to be more like a faucet washer than a typical O Ring.

A lot of the suggestions/ideas being made here are not well informed. Solid tubes are better at most things (which is why they put it there in the first place). If your compressor isn't loose, and the tube isn't corroded, it's not likely to fail, and the metal tube is a good choice. The few instances we have of the metal tubes failing are probably symptoms of other problems (e.g. loose parts, corrosion, etc.), not the root cause, so simply inspecting the tube should be sufficient.

If you go to a flexible tube, you have to go to a considerably larger size to still flow the same amount (I think it's like 50% larger... not trivial). Engineers generally only use flexible hoses when you need articulation, very high vibration resistance (such as vibratory conveyors, not a balanced spinning assembly like an engine), or because of thermal expansion (large assemblies like a tire molding press grow/shrink quite a bit as they get hot/cold, which is why even if it is a solid tube it will probably have a zig-zag in it to allow expansion at that accordian-shaped point).

https://www.hoseandfittingsetc.com/our-blog/hose-v.-tube-assembly-in-hydraulic-systems

 

[Awesomeness]

I.D. diameter is was one of my concerns when the fix was documented. Using the documentation that you provided, it would appear that that the hydraulic hose as a more consistent I.D. The I.D.. on tubing appears to be more of a nominal number, varying significantly with O.D. Based on that info,, I'm also thinking about the temp ratings. Might have to check temp today.

I have both set ups. I will mount the flex today. Why? No O rings were supplies with the cat part. They appear to be more like a faucet washer than a typical O Ring.

I think you might be reading it backwards, which is why I was trying to phrase it as "metal tube" and "flexible hose", not just "tube" and "hose". The metal tube has the more consistent ID. Basically everything is better about metal tubing, except that it isn't flexible, so you should always use metal tubing unless you need the flexibility. Flexible hose has a less consistent ID, as well as significantly more resistance (pressure drop over the length of the hose, due to friction with the hose wall), which is why you have to use a much larger ID hose than a metal tube. This is why the suggestion to just ditch the OEM metal tube and replace it with a flexible hose could introduce serious problems if it's not well thought out.

It's been a couple years since I took mine off, but I don't think the OEM metal tube had o-rings. I think it's just a standard flare fitting. But I could be wrong.

 

[Coffey1]

I don't think you will have that much restriction in that short of run.
Yes just like the hydraulic lines on the wrecker are hardline the twenty feet and hoses at very end of run, I can see that but on a hose that is what 10 inches no
If hose is same Id as pipe should be absolutely no issue.

 

[Awesomeness]

I don't think you will have that much restriction in that short of run.
Yes just like the hydraulic lines on the wrecker are hardline the twenty feet and hoses at very end of run, I can see that but on a hose that is what 10 inches no
If hose is same Id as pipe should be absolutely no issue.

You're right, it is a short run. I still recommend using a larger line if you can. If you know a flexible line of the same size is going to reduce flow some amount, and you don't know what long term effects that may have, why chance it?

That's a good example you gave though. Maybe cut a metal tube line and just put a very short flexible joint in the middle?

 

[Reworked LMTV]

From what I see here, the ID is kind of nominal with steel.

OD (in)	Gage (in)	ID (in)	Weight (Lbs/Ft.)	C-1010 Steel Pressure Rating (PSI)
5/8	.083 Wall	0.459	0.4810	3,350
3/4	.095 Wall .120 Wall	0.560 0.510	0.6646 0.8070	3,150 4,110

r4

Note that in order to have around 1/2" ID with pressure rating at least 3,000 PSI, we need to look at nominal sizes of 5/8" or 3/4".
​

Parker hydraulic hoses with 1/2" ID:

Hose Style	ID (in)	Weight (Lbs/Ft.)	Pressure Rating (PSI)
387-8	1/2	0.2900	3,000
487-8	1/2	0.3500	4,000
787-8	1/2	0.4500	5,000
797-8	1/2	0.4500	6,000
451-8	1/2	0.3500	3,000
302-8	1/2	0.4500	4,000
436-8	1/2	0.3400	3,500
BXX-8	1/2	0.4600	3,500
721-8	1/2	0.5400	4,000
M808	1/2	0.4600	4,000

Note that some hoses are lighter than steel tubes of similar inside diameter and pressure rating.

I think you might be reading it backwards, which is why I was trying to phrase it as "metal tube" and "flexible hose", not just "tube" and "hose". The metal tube has the more consistent ID. Basically everything is better about metal tubing, except that it isn't flexible, so you should always use metal tubing unless you need the flexibility. Flexible hose has a less consistent ID, as well as significantly more resistance (pressure drop over the length of the hose, due to friction with the hose wall), which is why you have to use a much larger ID hose than a metal tube. This is why the suggestion to just ditch the OEM metal tube and replace it with a flexible hose could introduce serious problems if it's not well thought out.

It's been a couple years since I took mine off, but I don't think the OEM metal tube had o-rings. I think it's just a standard flare fitting. But I could be wrong.

 

[Reworked LMTV]

I ran the thermometer along the flex tubing and it was in the 160's F at the block and 170's at the governor. Probably would go higher with warmer ambient temps and engine load.

 

[jkcondrey]

"It's been a couple years since I took mine off, but I don't think the OEM metal tube had o-rings. I think it's just a standard flare fitting. But I could be wrong. "

I just replaced mine not long ago. It actually is a flat interface, no flare or o-ring. I thought it was strange to not have any flare to it, but it seems to seal.