Trailer brake question...

[Mike_Pop]

I have a trailer that has air over hydraulic brakes. I also have a couple of surge brake setups. Can I remove the air actuated portion of my trailer brakes and install the surge directly to the hydraulic lines on the trailer? Seems like this would be cheaper than swapping out the axles for electric brakes.

 

[gimpyrobb]

I don't see why that wouldn't work.

 

[Mike_Pop]

It should work. I was just curious if anyone ever did it. Seems like an easy fix if you don't have air brakes such as on an M1009.

 

[piercedtiger]

I'm curious as well. Still researching getting an M105A2, but don't want it to end up being a long project to get brakes on it to tow with a civy truck.

I saw a post about using an ARB compressor to run the air portion, but if the parts cost $2,000 as mentioned it sorta defeats my reason for getting an M105 on the cheap!

 

[Mike_Pop]

Can someone with a surge brake setup please post photos of the system? I know there is a controller with a pintle hitch on it. Are there just lines running to the brakes or are there any other solenoids or valves?

Thanks!

 

[piercedtiger]

Mike, do you have an m101 with surge brakes? I'm wondering if you could hook it up the same way. Maybe get the tongue with surge components off another 101 and adapt to fit the 105? I think I'll go with a 101 with surge brakes now rather than try to rig up something on a 105.

I would assume it's just something to apply pressure to the oil when the trailer surges forward against the hitch so no solenoids would be needed. Maybe valves to divide the flow between the two sides.

Heck, if you want to remove the lunette (sp?) perhaps something like this would work for you:
http://shortlinks.net/mrw462

 

[piercedtiger]

This might be more useful. Not sure if it has instructions for installing, but if you have one with surge brakes already then you might have a model to follow. Or figure it out form basic instructions.

http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=6793&categoryID=150

 

[Mike_Pop]

Piercedtiger,

My M101 does not have surge brakes. I have a 14' tilt deck trialer with air over hydraulic brakes. I've got a couple surge break couplers with the pintle hooks. I just haven't had time to see if the setup will work. It's just too freaking cold outside to be messing around.

 

[piercedtiger]

I hear you. I've been helping a buddy work on cars the last couple months since we've both been out of work, and we had sub 20 temps for about 2 weeks. Luckily I have a barn to block the wind and a propane heater to take some of the chill off. Still sucks.

If I'm reading the manuals and info here correctly, it seems the air just activates the solenoid that applies pressure to the oil. I'm wondering if you even need all that with a surge brake. Most of them have an oil reservoir right? So remove the air lines, actuator, fluid reservoir, and then just plumb the surge lines to the lines running the drums. Buy some new brake lines, or grab some compression fittings and connect to the surge controller.

But all that's just off the top of my head skimming through the brake leak checking section on the 105's manual.

 

[piercedtiger]

Did I mention I hate working on brakes?

 

[Mike_Pop]

If I'm reading the manuals and info here correctly, it seems the air just activates the solenoid that applies pressure to the oil. I'm wondering if you even need all that with a surge brake. Most of them have an oil reservoir right? So remove the air lines, actuator, fluid reservoir, and then just plumb the surge lines to the lines running the drums. Buy some new brake lines, or grab some compression fittings and connect to the surge controller.

That's exactly what I was thinking of doing! I just wasn't sure if there were any other valves, solenoids, or reservoirs in the system.

 

[piercedtiger]

Do you have the m105a1-a2 manual? I managed to find and download it today... Looks fairly simple from the diagram.

Only about 4-5 parts. Two of which are air lines. Not sure why there's two. An emergency one? Extra?

That leaves solenoid, fluid reservoir, and a common line to the drums (T-connector to solenoid).

My guess is the solenoid is only to isolate oil and air so you don't get air in the brake lines. So it acts like a master cylinder in a car.

 

[gimpyrobb]

The only thing I would worry about is to make sure the surge has enough displacement to fully engauge the stock brake system. There is a formula to figure how much fluid is needed to move the brakes correctly. If it doesn't have enough flow, the brakes will not stop you.

 

[piercedtiger]

I know the second link I posted has a way to calibrate that... Not sure how you'd do it on one of the ones from a 101....

 

[piercedtiger]

Here's the install manual I downloaded to look at:
http://shop.easternmarine.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.getFile&prodID=6793

Page 4 has a way to test I believe would work for you. By the exploded parts view on page 11 it looks relatively simple with no real calibration. More like the harder the trailer surges against the hitch, the harder the piston inside is pushed and the harder the brakes are applied. So I would think you'd be fine as long as it's full of oil, hooked up right, and no air in the lines.

To me, since surge brakes normally don't stop the trailer by themselves (short of the emergency disconnect) they'll help just by applying whatever brake force they can. Do the m101 units you have come with an emergency disconnect that locks the brakes?

As long as you can just bolt/weld the surge brake to the new tongue without disassembling it I would think everything would be set up right.

Then again, my only real experience with them is on U-Haul auto transports towing near or over the max cap of my truck. My truck's rather light so pulsing the brakes helped slow down by giving the surge brake that little extra jolt to kick in a little more. So take that for what it's worth.

 

[beaubeau]

I got surg brakes on my 10,000lb Boat trl and it works fine! U will get used to it soon enough. When u stop, the surge brake moves to the Rear of The hitch. When U take off quickly, it will Slamb forward and Jerk UR vehicle. U got to remember to drive off SLOWLY! Good luck, Phil

 

[Mike_Pop]

UPDATE 2-21-09:

It CAN be done!

I finally removed my air over hydraulic brakes and put on a surge brake. It was pretty simple to do by removing all of the air lines and the master cylinder that the air hooked up to. I put on a surge pintle hitch, plumbed it up, bled the lines, and now everything works great!

 

[acmunro]

Thanks, I am going to do that with one of my M105 or M103 trailers. Do you have any pictures of your install ?

 

[Mike_Pop]

I'll try to get some pictures tomorrow.