Transmission problems after rebuild

[FireFighterHill]

My truck would not stay in overdrive and was getting worse and worse so I had it rebuilt. The rebuilder said he found broken springs in the OD section and worn out bands and clutchs through out. He told me though that the TC was fine and did not need replaced. So he fixed everything and put the tranny back in and added an external cooler and bypassed the factory cooler.

The truck does run better but now I have some unusual symptoms that after much reading im convinced is a TC problem. here is a list of the problems

*increased fuel consumption

*sporadic inability to keep speed it bleeds off speed and requires me to press the gas down until it kicks down a gear. If I dont it will just keep getting slower and slower and the engine will start to chug like its in to high of a gear until I give it enough throttle to cause the transmission to kick down.

*When first starting after sitting over night take the transmission a few moments to get up enough pressure to move the truck.

*poor acceleration, the engine roars and the RPMS go way up but its like the truck is not picking up much speed for how much power until it gets up till about 30-35 then its starts picking up speed faster.

I really think the fins are either worn or deformed and or the stator is either locked in both ways or free wheeling.

Any opinions?

im kinda pissed cause I wanted to replace the TC and he talked me out of it.

 

[Floridianson]

Are we allowed to tar and feather bad mechanics in FL.

 

[FireFighterHill]

Do you think my assumption that the TC is damaged or worn are correct?

 

[gimpyrobb]

I guess we are talking cucv? Sounds like a tc to me.

 

[FireFighterHill]

Its actually a dodge dakota v6 with a a500/42re. I trust the guys advice on here above just about any other automotive forum im on.

 

[nhdiesel]

I'm sorry to say it, but that trans guy is NOT a transmission expert. ANY time a transmission is replaced or rebuilt, a new torque converter NEEDS to be installed. It is even more critical if a catastrophic failure occurred (broken pieces).

Torque converters act as a natural centrifuge. Trans fluid passes through them, but contaminants tend to stay in the TC. The centrifuge action pulls particles from the fluid and traps them inside the TC. Check with any GOOD transmission shop, and none will warranty a rebuild or new trans unless a new TC is installed.

If you are lucky, you just have to pull the trans again and replace the TC, and hope nothing from the TC managed to come out and get into the transmission. Keep this in mind for future transmission work. Oh, and one more place many mechanics miss- while it is all apart, at minimum the trans cooler needs to be flushed thoroughly. A better idea is to actually replace it, since flushing doesn't always get everything out, and chunks can come loose later on.

There is a reason a GOOD automatic transmission rebuild can cost several thousand dollars.

Jim

 

[FireFighterHill]

Well I paid 1300 dollars cash to a shop ive used before. They dont do the rebuilds in house. I trusted there judgment on the tranny guy they use. They took it out and put it back in said if it has to come out again they wont charge me anything more.

The TC I want cost about 500 dollars and will take 2 weeks for building and shipping as they build for application and dont keep them on the shelf.

Im taking it back tomorrow for the guy who rebuilt it to give it a look over and to see if I can reproduce the symptoms. Problem is the symptoms are sporadic.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Well, I thought you were talking about transfer cases. Shows how much I know about auto transmissions! I will sit back and just read now.

 

[nhdiesel]

I hope the shop that did the actual rebuild knows about upgrades to the Dodge transmissions. In stock form they are junk. Beefed up properly, you can make do with one. My '97 Dakota was bought new by my friend's mom and was never abused until I bought it (I tow a fair bit). At 30k she needed a new transmission. That one lasted until 80k, and went again (I had owned it for 20k miles).

One thing to keep in mind, and I hope your shop knows this- that transmission NEEDS Mopar ATF +4 fluid! If he used Mercon/Dexron, have him flush it completely and use Mopar fluid! Even so, the damage could have already been done! I bought a Grand Cherokee cheap because it needed a transmission. Big surprise, it went about 3 weeks after a shop flushed the fluid and changed the filter, and didn't use Mopar fluid. I flushed it, put in a new filter, and filled with +4, and it was able to drive again. It eventually failed on me, because the damage was already done.

One of the issues by using thew wrong fluid is the torque converter. Most lockup Tcs either lock or unlock, period. But Chrysler allows slippage during the process. If the wrong fluid is used, that turns into shudder and will quickly destroy the torque converter. The wrong fluid is also incompatible with the friction material used on the bands and clutches.

By the way...I went to a Chrysler school and used to be a Chrysler tech.

Jim

 

[gimpyrobb]

Good show Jim!

 

[FireFighterHill]

nhdiesel, that was another issue I brought up and they all swear up and down the use the mercon/dexron in everything and never have a problem. I was always told to use ATF4 and have done so when I changed the fluid.

Ive put less then 500 miles on it since the rebuild, I dont need another rebuild already do I? Also I hope I dont have to replace the brand new cooler that i paid for myself on top of the 1300 bucks. I'm regretting my decision to let them rebuild it I know there is no way they will give me my 1300 bucks back.

I guess im asking will I be fine If I replace torque converter flush the system out and replace it with ATF4 fluid and a new filter?

 

[FireFighterHill]

They guy who did the rebuild said he uses all raybestos friction materials and has over 20 years rebuilding transmissions.

 

[nhdiesel]

It doesn't matter how many years exp. he has, unless he somehow managed to reprogram the trans controller to not allow any slippage, that TC will destroy itself. I have heard that excuse a million times about the fluid. In reality, he was being cheap, all around. I'm sure if you could contact the actual shop that did the rebuild, they would tell you that their warranty only covers if a new TC was used, but he was cheap and didn't spend a couple hundred bucks to cover his (and your) butt. Then he wouldn't even pony up for $22/gal fluid.

I went back and reread your list if issues. I hate to bring bad news, but I think you need a rebuild. If the problems were just the TC and some minor slippage, a new TC and good flushing would probably fix it. At this point you need a good rebuild.

If it were me, I would try to innocently try to get the name of the rebuilder of the transmission and talk to them directly. Find out their warranty, and see if they would honor it with another shop doing the work. Then ask what they need from you for them to cover it. I'm willing to bet they ask for a receipt for a new TC, but you might get lucky.

At worse case, if you can't get the info you need, ask your shop about their warranty and what they will do for you. If they will pull it and get you another new trans, offer to pay for a new TC, and pay for the Mopar fluid. Its extra cost, but worth the savings in headaches. Try to be as pleasant as possible. You want to be friends with this place until you get your truck fixed properly. They will be mad enough at doing the work again.

For the last several years I worked at a small shop. Even there, we only used actual Mopar fluid for Chrysler vehicles. We warned the customer and they were usually willing to pay the extra. If it was an old beater, and the customer didn't want to pony up the extra $$, we would cheat and use one of the knockoff +4 fluids that was a little cheaper. But we left it up to the customer.

Oh...another story about how expensive wrong fluid can be. A customer came in with a grand Cherokee that had 4x4 issues. I pulled the fill plug and it was full of ATF, right to the full line. I got suspicious so I checked the required fluid for that case, and it was supposed to be a special Mopar fluid, which happens to be clear (not the red ATF I found). That ended up being close to $1500 to fix, using a used t-case. I'm sure the last shop she went to assured her ATF was just fine in it.

Jim

 

[FireFighterHill]

Its the guy who did the actual rebuild who is being cheap. The shop I took it to all they do is pull out the tranny let him rebuild it and stick it back in. This is turning into a nightmare.

For right now I think my only course of action will be to get them to flush out the dexron out of the entire system and put atf4 in and put in a new torque converter. I cant afford another rebuild and I know the shop is not going to just hand me my money back and I highly doubt the guy who rebuilt is going to believe anything I say he will just go into his thing about how he has rebuilt trannys for so many years.

 

[FireFighterHill]

Took it to the shop again this morning to let the guy that did the rebuild take it for a test drive. There is good news and bad news

Bad news: they cant reproduce the symptoms I described and they are sticking to there guns that dexron is perfectly fine for the transmission and will not cause any problems.

Good news: the shop is willing to flush it out and put ATF4 along with a new torque converter and not charge me again for labor.

Bad news: the torque converter I wish to purchase cost about 500 dollars and atf4 plus filter will cost me 50 so when all is said and done I will be into this tranny for right around 2000 dollars.

Im wishing now I would have taken it to the place that quoted me 2,500 but they included a new external cooler a new oem style TC and mopar fluid and filter and a 1 year 10,000 mile warranty.

NHdiesel any advice on purchasing a TC? the one I want is from Hughes Performance the 16LXTM XTM Torque converters, GM torque converters and Street Rod Converters

 

[nhdiesel]

I have no suggestions for a TC. I've always just used stock replacements. It sounds like the ship is at least making an attempt to work with you. And as part of the process, you also need to let them make their attempt. Let them do it their way, then if the problem comes back again, take it back to them then.

Good luck with it, my fingers are crossed for you.

Jim

 

[FireFighterHill]

Well I ordered the one listed in my last post, should be here Friday. I found nothing but good reviews of the company and when I called there technical support he explained the difference in several of there torque converters versus stock to help me choose the one that would work best for me. He also recommended I use ONLY ATF4 fluid and recommended using MOPAR fluid.

 

[nhdiesel]

Here is some good reading on your transmission family.

Chrysler, Plymouth, and Dodge four-speed automatic transmission repairs

It also tells of some shop's tricks to watch for.

Jim

 

[Stalwart]

Sounds like a valve body internal leak. They don't typically use gaskets, just flat machined surfaces. I've had this happen, pressure bleeds from one passage to the next and applies 2 gears at once. This results in the binding you seem to have. It toasts all the clutches involved and won't last long. We ended up lapping the body halves on glass backed 600 grit sand paper lubricated with light oil. We had also raised the pressure too high with a shift kit so we used a lower pressure setting and the issue was solved. Good luck . . .

 

[FireFighterHill]

I wish I could afford to take my truck somewhere else but I am tapped out after all this. Im pissed off cause they are acting like im making this **** up just so that they will put in the torque converter. I was nice up till the point he told me he was going to want money to put the torque converter in cause his tranny guy says there is no problem. I told him hey the problem is SPORADIC it doesnt happen all the time. In fact it happened again today where it bleeds off speed and acts like it cant keep a steady speed but I drove through it and it went away.

Plus his original quote which is what I paid included a re-manufactured Torque Converter which they never supplied.

I also told him I wanted ATF4 what the manufacture calls for in the transmission NOT DEXRON. I also told him every single shop I spoke to AND the Torque Converter Manufacture told me to ONLY use ATF4.

I also told him that everyone told me any tranny builder who does not replace the TC after every rebuild is cheap and you should walk away and never come back and also that any shop that tells you that DEXRON is fine in a Chrysler is wrong and you should walk away.

Telling him all this he backed down and said fine he will replace the TC with the new Torque Converter and with ATF4 that I supply. I told him I think the rebuild is fine I just think the TC is the problem and everyone else is agreeing with me. So after they are done putting in the new TC and flushing it with ATF4 im done with this shop I will find another one.

All I want is my truck to drive like it did 5-10,000 miles ago before I started having problems. I mean **** I paid 1300 dollars for a rebuild I know there is LESS then 300 dollars in parts in the rebuild so they got 1000 bucks in labor for id say MAYBE 6-8 hours of continuous work and thats being generous giving them that much.

I also kinda feel like they should have to pony up cause they didn't provide a remand TC like they said they would in the beginning. If they had I might not be having these problems and If I did I wouldn't be able to blame it on the TC as easily.