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Trip to the Maginot-Line / France with a M35a2

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Location
Karlsruhe, Germany
Hi,

we took the restaurated deuce to a trip over the border to France, where we visited the Hagenau-section of the Maginot-Line. For the historically inclined there is a good coverage of the matter in wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maginot_Line .
The trip covered a lot of off-road and some forest trails in order to visit the remote bunkers or fortifications.
We started in Hatten / Esch and went all the way to the big underground-fort of Schoenenburg.

But now: let the pictures talk :driver:

Cheers,
Mark
 

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598
0
16
Location
Karlsruhe, Germany
Maxim, under those cupolas are large underground structures with tunnels that lead vertically upwards into the cupola itself. The crew was standing on a platform which could be lowered and raised very quickly, and when a cupola was under fire no one was in there (usually).
But I agree, the noise and lack of observation or situational awareness must have been terrible.
 

CARNAC

The Envelope Please.
Supporting Vendor
8,272
607
113
Location
Corpus Christi, TX
Sounds like GREAT fun on your trip.

I visited the Simserhof part of the line near Bitche back in the early 90's. There's so much history and so little time when I was stationed there back in the late 80's and early 90's.

One of my favorite getaways was hitting a small unit action around Grosskampenburg as outlined in Charles B. McDonald's book Company Commander. Went around finding their old bunkers and even foxholes. While visitig that battlefield I saw farmers that still had tank roadwheels in their farmyards. I distinctly remember seeing ones for panthers and the RSO. Tried to buy one but he wanted way too much money. Looking back, it was probably a deal but not sure what I'd do with a panther roadwheel. Hanging it in the office would probably not been an option. LOL.
 
598
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Location
Karlsruhe, Germany
Just for a little round-up, below is a schematic picture of the casemate of Bois de Hoffen sud (south) to which the above image of the staircase belongs to. The view of the camera is marked in the schematic by the red arrow.

@medlog: Simserhof is definitly on my list of field trips! Haven't been there yet. You can spend years of field-research on these matters here, since most of the structures on the french side are still intact, not like on the german side, where everything is blown up or buried. If someone is interested in recent history and visits Germany or France, I would strongly suggest to stop by in that area, since there is so much to see.
--> Guides are available :)




Mark
 

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rmgill

Active member
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38
Location
Decatur, Ga
You'll note that the Germans went around the Maginot line and did NOT try to frontally assault it. That would have been suicide. You'll also note that those impacts didn't penetrate the casemate save for the one oblique shot on the opening. Very likely the 88 crews were under fire from the neighboring forts with larger, longer ranged artillery.

The failure of the Maginot line wasn't the line itself, rather the failure to back it up with mobile reserves able to go on the offense using the fortress line as a fixing obstacle. That was a failure of French Military Leadership and civilian government.
 
598
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Location
Karlsruhe, Germany
Ryan,
actually the line was assaulted frontally on some presumably weak points. The damage you see on the cupolas above are a result of that.
In my opinion and from what I know the technical and organizational aspects of the Maginot Line were among the most modern on the time when it was built. Nothing I know which was constructed during that time was as well organzied and designed like that (except maybe for the walls inside the fortified structures, which were awfully weak). This is no wonder, because it was built based on the experience gathered during the first world war with the old fortifications like those in Verdun, which had to withstand tremendous onslaughts.
There also were fatal penetrations on some cupolas or structures, but that wasn't really necessary in the long run, bacause the crews usually gave up anyhow because the were surrounded.

I packed all the pictures of the trip in a gallery on
http://www.m35-deuce.de/gallery/200804_Maginot/index.html

You will see a lot of insights in those structures, also some which show that there were structural weaknesses in the inside of the bunkers (because the inside walls were not a integral part of the building, they probably raised them after finishing the outer hull).


Cheers,
Mark
 

rmgill

Active member
2,479
14
38
Location
Decatur, Ga
It was attacked frontally, but those were fixing attacks and the main effort was going around the line. It wasn't until the fortress line could be attacked from the rear (or various fortresses surrendered due to the general surrender) could they really be reduced.

Fixed fortifications can impeded mobile forces. You just have to expect that their 3 or 4 to 1 odds will eventually reduce your defenses. That's why you need a mobile reserve to get around and attack the enemy while they're trying to deal with the tough nuts. If the French had had properly organized tank formations with infantry supporting (rather than the other way around) with perhaps some better designs that had a Gunner AND a commander for the tank, then they'd have really fouled up the german advance. When an Allied Armoured counter attack got going it very nearly cut off a significant portion of the German forces in the north. The attack was delayed slightly and iirc, that delay allowed German 88's to get in position and stop the attack. If there'd been MORE of such inspired and coordinated armored counter attacks, the Germans wouldn't have succeeded. Instead the doling out of armour in penny packets allowed the French forces to be defeated in detail.

Sad really considering French forces had the advantage in men, material, and technology.
 

zak

Member
610
-4
18
Location
Ortonville, Mi
Your pictures are amazing, I can't imagine being inside as those big shells are slamming against the outside. What even more amazing( for this day and age) is I didn't see one piece of graffiti anywhere. No trash either.
 
598
0
16
Location
Karlsruhe, Germany
Ryan,

please forgive me, but I have to dispute this a little :) I agree to a lot of your points, but:
The Maginot Line is long and there surely were various tactics on the german side to deal with it.
In the Haguenau sector (Alsace) the tactic was definitly to attack it frontally to knock the large fortifications out. There was no "going around", because the combined Hochwald and the Schoenenbourgh fortresses (as well as Lembach and Four á Chaux in the west) were too strong and the weapons of these fortifications reached for quite long distances and could do considerable damage in that area if left intact. The Germans threw everything they had at the structures, including Stukas and He111, but the line held despite the fierce fighting and continous attacks. In fact, the Line in the Haguenau section was never defeated militarily, and the frontal lines stopped before it. There was no "going around". What brought an end to the affair was the truce in june 22nd 1940 and the order for the men in the fortresses, casemates and bunkers to surrender. Expecially the Schoenenbourgh and Hochwald complexes as well as the western ouvrages were very well equipped and could have continued to fight for quite some time.

I think that in the beginning of the conflict the french had a more than adequate mobile force behind the line, but it was reduced considerably during the conflict because the troops were needed to stop the advancing front towards Paris in the northwest. This is why the Vosges sector eventually fell. There was no use in keeping a strong force up there when the capital city of Paris was endangered, that is understandable in my terms. But anyhow, the Haguenau sector withstood despite the lack of mobile forces in the back, because of its sheer firepower and good coordination between the units, and the inability of the Germans to destroy the fortifications despite Stukas and heavy artillery.
The extreme destruction you see in some of my pictures occured when the Germans retreated towards the homeland 1944. They blew a lot of casemates or infantry bunkers up. One method was to seal the top floor of the bunker, fill it up with water and explode a large explosive device in it. That cracked even the thickest conrete walls, as you can see.

@ Larry:
the nearer the casemates are to a street or a settlement the more garbage, looting and graffiti you will see in the bunkers. You have to know where the real good ones are! This is why you need a offroad car for these trips, perfect for the deuce.
It is quite dangerous, by the way, to enter these structures. The stairways often lack of handrails, which invites for a 60ft free fall if one trips over the debris on the stairs. Then there can be very deep sewers and ducts in the floors. To enter the casemates usually means to make a loooong step over the diamond trench or ditch, which is about 20 feet deep, to reach a hinge on the armour door where one can put the foot on to enter the structure. Never step on anything in there (expecially covers or opening) and always look where you're going. I once almost fell into a hole which ended in a cistern, that surely can ruin your day... Since then I even walk around duct- or sewer covers on the open street or sidewalk.

Mark
 

superburban

Member
484
5
18
Location
SL,UT
HOLY COW! THAT WAS AWSOME! I CANT GET OVER HOW DEEP SOME OF THOSE STAIRCASES GO! OH, MAN, I SUDENLY HAVE A UNCONTROLABLE URGE TO GO TO FRANCE!

Wow! Great job on cronicaling your excursion, roger-wilco-66.
 
598
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16
Location
Karlsruhe, Germany
Thanks guys! If someone plans to visit this place, just give me a call and we'll work out a nice trip (in style, with the deuce, of course).

@ BC: no, that was when I had trouble with the surpressor. I worked that out after the trip, thanks for your help!


Mark
 
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