Turbo Matching

frank8003

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There is no low oil level and the oil level is full. The guy who knows more about diesel engines said it is normal for the oil to come out there. We are thinking of doing an oil change on it because we do not know when the last time it was changed from the previous fire company and then it sat outside at the forestry place for a year.
First thing to do is always change the oil and filters, It is only 5 gallons.
Even in generators, lawnmowers and any IC engine, change the oil.
DO NOT put diesel crankcase oil in the multi-fuel fuel tank. It is impossible to get the soot out.
Unless you have a supply of hydraulic heads and piston rings.
 

fireman5214

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After a long time, we finally got time to take the deuce apart a little more, I got some pictures of the turbo, the air filter and can and the smoke without the air filter and with the air filter back in. We are thinking if we replace the air filter it will help but we are still looking for more with more experience. Since I can only attach 10 files per post, please see images in the next post.

The air filter looks to be in bad shape and we have no idea when it was last replaced. We are looking to replace it - What are your thoughts on this possibly causing the extra black smoke?

Pictures of the turbo are attached I think the number is 0798 as previously mentioned or 8620 ???

On the air filter can - what does the small tube get hooked too (this faces the center of the firewall when back in place)

The last 2 images are without the air filter and can hooked up to the air intake.
 

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fireman5214

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These last 2 pictures - what does the tube that is capped off go too?

The smoke pic is when the OLD air filter and can is back installed as we do not have a new one yet.

The video is WITHOUT the air filter and can installed.
 

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martinv

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Video looks normal to me. When you step on the gas quick, I think smoke is expected until the turbo catches up. If it is smoky at idle or a constant rpm only while the air filter is in, I would replace the filter. It looks bad and they are available. Is the dirty filter indicator under the steering column showing orange (meaning it tripped)? The hole in the side that goes no where is the same as mine, goes no where and i'm also not sure what its for. As far as turbo model. Mine has a metal label behind the oil tube on the top. It's in the most difficult place to see aside from being inside the turbo :) Can use cell phone to get a pic if you hold it just right.
 

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cattlerepairman

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That little tube allows a 1in ID hose to be connected and run to the air compressor intake, if desired. Often capped off because without said hose attached it interferes with choking the air intake with a board in case of an engine runaway.
 

davidb56

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that filter is shot. the exhaust looks good. Mine has a little more black smoke when I blip the throttle because my fuel is turned up a little. The hose connection is for the compressor intake to keep water out of it if you go into deep creek crossings. you can probably test it by hooking up a mighty-vac to the hose, so you dont worry about it supplying air to a runaway engine.
 

SCSG-G4

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These last 2 pictures - what does the tube that is capped off go too?

The smoke pic is when the OLD air filter and can is back installed as we do not have a new one yet.

The video is WITHOUT the air filter and can installed.
First picture is the air vent ending for the MC, trans, TC and the axles so they don't build up pressure as they heat up. Not every truck has them, but all should. Was sometimes put on as a part of the deep water fording assembly from what I've been told.
 

fireman5214

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Video looks normal to me. When you step on the gas quick, I think smoke is expected until the turbo catches up. If it is smoky at idle or a constant rpm only while the air filter is in, I would replace the filter. It looks bad and they are available. Is the dirty filter indicator under the steering column showing orange (meaning it tripped)? The hole in the side that goes no where is the same as mine, goes no where and i'm also not sure what its for. As far as turbo model. Mine has a metal label behind the oil tube on the top. It's in the most difficult place to see aside from being inside the turbo :) Can use cell phone to get a pic if you hold it just right.
When someone repainted the truck from green to red, they sprayed over the dirty filter indicator and it is barely visible. We are looking to replace the filter first and see what happens. We think the turbo may still be good?
 

Major Asstyrd

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That turbo PN is a BorgWarner and designed for LD-465 but there could have been other turbos specified over the years. It plus the CHRA (cartridge) part numbers are still in their system. I haven't asked if they have any stock at BW. If that is the turbo you want replaced I could check.

Boost gauge as close to the intake manifold is a great idea now and later. You have to know what PSI is normal under full load. If boost is normal then the turbo is doing its job. If low boost there could be a few causes that have been mentioned including not enough fuel so not enough hot gas coming into the turbine to get the shaft moving enough. But black smoke means plenty of fuel.

Proper injection timing is important and all injectors need to be spraying properly. You could pull those and have a FI shop test them. I can find out who the good shops are near you if you want.
 

fireman5214

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that filter is shot. the exhaust looks good. Mine has a little more black smoke when I blip the throttle because my fuel is turned up a little. The hose connection is for the compressor intake to keep water out of it if you go into deep creek crossings. you can probably test it by hooking up a mighty-vac to the hose, so you dont worry about it supplying air to a runaway engine.
what is a mighty vac?
 

fireman5214

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That turbo PN is a BorgWarner and designed for LD-465 but there could have been other turbos specified over the years. It plus the CHRA (cartridge) part numbers are still in their system. I haven't asked if they have any stock at BW. If that is the turbo you want replaced I could check.

Boost gauge as close to the intake manifold is a great idea now and later. You have to know what PSI is normal under full load. If boost is normal then the turbo is doing its job. If low boost there could be a few causes that have been mentioned including not enough fuel so not enough hot gas coming into the turbine to get the shaft moving enough. But black smoke means plenty of fuel.

Proper injection timing is important and all injectors need to be spraying properly. You could pull those and have a FI shop test them. I can find out who the good shops are near you if you want.
Yes, if you could look that up we would greatly appreciate it! We are located in Nazareth, Pennsylvania 18064
 

Dipstick

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I just stumbled upon a brand new whistler turbo today for $520. That's half of what I paid for mine direct from Switzer. I'll try to find the webpage. My exhaust wheel looked like someone took a grinder to it. That's why I replaced rather than rebuilt it. I don't think turbochargers are supposed to have any noticeable play either radially or axially. They are a pretty close fit to the housing. Otherwise, they would not build boost. A turbocharger is essentially a reaction turbine and needs close tolerances to pump efficiently. Plus, if you have a lot of black smoke coming out of the exhaust, some lubricating oil may be getting into the exhaust side turbine. If the turbocharger is not spinning rapidly enough or not at all when the engine is running you could have an exhaust restriction which may account for the lack of power.
 

Dipstick

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I found it. C&C Equipment carries them brand new for $599 without the gaskets and stuff I guess. I paid $1,485 for mine from another supplier. Boy did I ever get ripped off! I'd go with a rebuild kit first, but if your turbo turns out to be shot, C&C's turbo price is a really good deal.
 

Dipstick

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Check that. A turbocharger is more closely related to an impulse turbine. I'm rusty. Had to look it up.
 

Major Asstyrd

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I just stumbled upon a brand new whistler turbo today for $520. That's half of what I paid for mine direct from Switzer. I'll try to find the webpage. My exhaust wheel looked like someone took a grinder to it. That's why I replaced rather than rebuilt it. I don't think turbochargers are supposed to have any noticeable play either radially or axially. They are a pretty close fit to the housing. Otherwise, they would not build boost. A turbocharger is essentially a reaction turbine and needs close tolerances to pump efficiently. Plus, if you have a lot of black smoke coming out of the exhaust, some lubricating oil may be getting into the exhaust side turbine. If the turbocharger is not spinning rapidly enough or not at all when the engine is running you could have an exhaust restriction which may account for the lack of power.
Have you run the truck with the replacement turbo? Did you fix what killed the last one? Could have been hit by a foreign object left in the manifold by a mechanic, or an engine part. Melted blades can look similar unless you know what you are looking at.

Radial play can be felt. It's less when the bearing housing is full of oil. Nearly all turbos have journal bearings - bronze or brass sleeves - and there is a film of engine oil in the I.D. between the bearing and shaft and also between the O.D. of the bearing and the bore of the housing it rides in. Shaft, bearings, housing, and thrust bearing on the compressor side never touch each other. When the rotating assembly spools up and down there is some radial pressure that presses on the film of oil on one side or the other. There is slight movement, but the film resists most of it.

I found it. C&C Equipment carries them brand new for $599 without the gaskets and stuff I guess. I paid $1,485 for mine from another supplier. Boy did I ever get ripped off! I'd go with a rebuild kit first, but if your turbo turns out to be shot, C&C's turbo price is a really good deal.
What's the part number for both of them?

Oil can sneak into the turbine and compressor, especially if idling a long period of time, but when driving it shouldn't be enough to cause more smoke than a diesel normally makes, which is black. Oil smoke is usually blueish. A lot of oil lost there means a collapsed or broken seal ring on that side, or the oil in the housing is not draining into the crankcase and it's backing up, so it wants to go out the end gap of the rings on both sides, which are like engine piston rings. Or there is excess crankcase pressure from a hole in a piston or broken rings and oil is pumping up the drain tube. Anything that keeps feed oil from getting into the top of the housing and into the bearings will kill the turbo. Oil will sit there, heat up, and turn to coke, now it's not oily. Oil lubricates but is also the cooliing mechanism. It needs to be moving through there.

Remember, no goop or teflon tape on the oil inlet fitting. You don't want any piece of that going downstream.
 
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Dipstick

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You obviously know your turbos. I agree with everything you stated. Thank you for your well thought out reply. The exhaust turbine blade damage in my original turbo was very regular looking as if it were done with some sort of filing or grinding tool. I would have expected a more ragged look to the blades if it had been FOD. It was not coked up and I never thought it was running up to speed because it never really whistled. I had already purchased a rebuild kit, but when I opened it up I decided it was beyond repair. When other suppliers wanted $1,000 for a used whistler, I decided to go with a brand new one. I installed it in 2013 and it has run like a champ ever since. It begins whistling at idle as it's very free. My truck barely smokes at all. It's more like a light haze that you can just see. I've always thought that the lubricating oil in a turbo not only lubricates the bushings, but that it also acts much like a kingsbury thrust bearing helping to balance out the thrust and Engine LH Side.jpgEngine RH Side.jpgaxial play. I can remember working on roots style superchargers in the Navy (Gray Marine - Detroit Diesel and Fairbanks-Morse) engines. We used very thin, long, and flexible feeler gauges to measure the lobe to lobe clearances while rotating the assembly. The Switzer like replacement turbo at C&C appears to have the exhaust manifold to turbo gasket included. At $599 I would not hesitate to use one if the need ever arose.
 

Major Asstyrd

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Note to turbo installers. Always prime the turbo with oil right before installation. Squirt it in the inlet and watch it come out the drain, then attach the lines.. Same goes for the oil supply line. A dry line and bearing housing takes a number of seconds to fill when the engine starts up and that is enough time to wound or kill the bearings! They are not designed to touch each other but will with no oil.

Consider replacing the oil feed line in case there is sludge or coked oil in it that is restricting flow. Maybe that is what hurt the old bearings. Sometimes moving the old line around during turbo R&R will dislodge some junk inside and guess where that ends up?
 
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Mullaney

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You obviously know your turbos. I agree with everything you stated. Thank you for your well thought out reply. The exhaust turbine blade damage in my original turbo was very regular looking as if it were done with some sort of filing or grinding tool. I would have expected a more ragged look to the blades if it had been FOD. It was not coked up and I never thought it was running up to speed because it never really whistled. I had already purchased a rebuild kit, but when I opened it up I decided it was beyond repair. When other suppliers wanted $1,000 for a used whistler, I decided to go with a brand new one. I installed it in 2013 and it has run like a champ ever since. It begins whistling at idle as it's very free. My truck barely smokes at all. It's more like a light haze that you can just see. I've always thought that the lubricating oil in a turbo not only lubricates the bushings, but that it also acts much like a kingsbury thrust bearing helping to balance out the thrust and View attachment 810476View attachment 810477axial play. I can remember working on roots style superchargers in the Navy (Gray Marine - Detroit Diesel and Fairbanks-Morse) engines. We used very thin, long, and flexible feeler gauges to measure the lobe to lobe clearances while rotating the assembly. The Switzer like replacement turbo at C&C appears to have the exhaust manifold to turbo gasket included. At $599 I would not hesitate to use one if the need ever arose.
Dipstick, That is a really nice CLEAN looking engine compartment!
 
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