Understanding the cooling system in relataion to block heaters (video)

[emr]

Heat radiats in all directions if its the Sun....Here on earth it goes up. that may be a relative thing but it does....... a room with absolutly no interference from any other force just a dead room will be warmer near the top. here on earth.......

 

[Farmun]

Didn't you say that you went from the back of the block where the drain is to the water pump? You have a system that circulates the coolant through with a pump. You completed the circuit by running from block to pump.....it then runs from pump back to the block through the oil cooler... One big loop with a pump forcing it through...of course it works.

Yes, it (cold water) goes from the back of the block toward the heater unit where the cold water is heated. Then the heated water, or heat, rises from the unit (which is mounted on the frame rail) to the heater hose connected from the lower outlet on the water pump. This is the outlet where most people are installing Westfolk's heater unit. I'm thinking that what an earlier member mentioned is that the heated water is entering the bypass line toward the oil cooler, then making it's merry way around the plumbing and block, then eventually making it back to the rear block drain from whence it came. And the whole cycle starts again, recirculating warmer water.

This particular model of Kat's heaters is not a pump. It heats the water via a 1500 watt heating element inside.

 

[tm america]

did you watch and listen to the video westfolk posted about installing block heaters in the water pump ? they work just as he discribed . .just as the video shows by how the truck starts at those temps without any other starting aids. you are forgetting several things in your video .this is why the results of installing a screw in heater in the water pump are very different than you say they will be . they do work and are quit effective.if you watch the video he talks about putting it in the bottom hole and moving the heater hose to the next hole up . the heater hose then bypasses the thermostat .this is covered in a tm listed on the old site.second the thermostat does bypass some coolant .it doesnt stop the flow completely.this allows the tube on the side of the block to act as the fill and the thermostat bypass to act as the return to the water pump . also the heater hoses act as a bypass when moved to the next hole up.like discribed in the tm.the tube on the side of the block will not disapait all the heat of the water in the tube as you say.it will not be cool when it gets to the block like you say. it will loose some heat but as the block heater is plugged in for several hours it will heat it more and more ever time the coolant passes the heater.till it is all heated .you are correct in saying it also heats the rad .it heats all the coolant .by way of the coolant being moved by convection .the thermostat doesnt have to open for this to happen..i will get my infered thermometer out this weekend and post the temps of all the parts of the engine . i would hardly call westfolk stupid for making the video he made or for selling a heater that works wonderfully . he has more yrs of expereince with these truck then you probably have been alive.not only did he make a video .he made several one of the install ,one of the truck without the heater ,and one with using the heater , those videos are based off of facts he has a thermometer in the video proving the temp at which it is starting and you see his hands and gages to back up what he is saying with facts not opinions like your video. i do not see a block heater in your engine i do not see a thermometer in you video i see opinions and more opinions. you need to back up what you say with facts and data or it is just opinions and nothing more than opinions .if you showed the heat loose you talk about with the different temp readings and you installed both types and took readings with both on two different days to show how one works better than the other . or even better if you showed the screw in type not to work before you call it a stupid idea and say the person that thought of the idea is stupid. there are several tractors that come from the factory with screw in block heaters in the water pump .i dont think the engineers at john deer or other tractor manufactures that did this are stupid as you said in your video .

 

[Keith_J]

I guess this all really has no relevance for warmer climates I've never had any problems starting my deuce in cold weather here, not even when it was in the teens for a week here. I guess it has to be below 0'F for you to start thinking about heaters. My deuce fires right up on the first press, even below freezing.

With the incredibly high compression ratio and using diesel fuel, the LDT should be fine into the teens. The only sticking point is the lack of glow plugs.

 

[tm america]

this video to me is like having a guy standing next to a mudd hole telling you what will happen if you go through it . rather than going through it proving what will happen .it was a complete waist of 4.48 minutes of my life watching it . i see nothing that was proved or disproved by this video .just someone without a block heater in their truck telling you how a block heater will work

 

[Bighurt]

Heat radiats in all directions if its the Sun....Here on earth it goes up. that may be a relative thing but it does....... a room with absolutly no interference from any other force just a dead room will be warmer near the top. here on earth.......

Because hot air rises not heat...

 

[attackone]

"Can't We All Just Get Along"

 

[kc5mzd]

I think we need a video of changing a thermostat. I think it would help us to explore how it effects how the way water flows when the engine is cool. I would try it but it is to cold outside - I think it is suposed to stay below 70 for the rest of the week.

 

[greenjeepster]

KC I will do it...it is 50 degrees here.

I have been over the thermostat housing diagram and it just is not enough detail to tell. I am starting to think that you are correct about the way the thermo works. If that is the case than thermosiphon will occur with the heater in the water pump.... I still contend that it is not a very efficient way of doing it because of the proximity to the radiator.

Here it is: Now I gotta go put my truck back together.

 

[greenjeepster]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWK08y2AMHs&feature=player_embedded[/media]

 

[area52]

Thanks for the video on the thermostat, never knew how those ones worked.

 

[tm america]

thanks for your video and hard waork to show how it works.like i said the therostat is bypasses in the dirrection that works best for the block heater in the water pump which makes it ever effective.as the rad has no flow till the thermostat opens .while the water pump and block will have full flow .it routes coolant from the block straight to the water pump then back to the block

 

[Bighurt]

Thanks for the Video, sorry you had to rip the truck apart but I can't imagine it was all that hard, there is plenty of room to work. None the less it was effort well spent. Thanks!

And don't worry about the Heat thing, this isn't science no one is giving you a grade or looking down on you cause you miss used a term.

 

[greenjeepster]

I Just simplified it to make it easier to understand...

These things work by thermosiphoning water through the engine.... if the thermostat was in fact closed they would be ineffective because you need a loop for the thermosiphon to work. I think the term thermosiphon threw some people off because manufacturers seem to have simplified the term to convection.

The difference is that convection is a broad term... it relates to solids, gas and liquid... It is basically the movement of heat through a medium. Thermosiphon only relates to liquid and is different from convection in that the liquid moves with the heat.

Don't worry about the truck...it actually took longer to put back together than it did to take apart...and no leaks so I did good.

 

[66Reo6X6]

Thanks to greenjeepster for the effort you have made to figure out this problem. The jury is still out for me. I have a 970 Case tractor with a 1500 watt tank heater and a 600 watt soft plug heater and for that application the tank heater seems to work better. Could be because of the higher wattage and different way the heated coolant is distributed in the engine. Still haven't put a heater on my duce yet. I keep it in an unheated shop and have started it with temps in the teens and twenties without much difficulty. Not bad for North Dakota!

 

[tm america]

when the thermostat is closed it forces the coolant to run from the intake back into the water pump to get heated by the block heater again and then it flows through the tube on the side back into the block up through the head then through the intake back to the water pump it takes the rad out of the cycle .unless the thermostat is open which is probably not goona happen with any block heater. so infact it makes it very effective .by putting the heat sourse in the water pump it puts it in almost the prefect place for thermosihoning to move the coolant in an effective manner

 

[roscoe]

Thanks for the video greenjeep. I knew I wasn't crazy -- my multi IS warm to the touch at 20F for a reason.

 

[cranetruck]

........Then the coolant flows through the oil cooler (is now a oil warmer) and back to the water pump where it is heated and convection from the block heater makes it flow back up into the head and so on...

The stock thermostat in a multifuel will remain closed in 100% bypass mode until the water reaches about 165deg. It is fully opened at about 190.

When the multifuel engine is shut down, by design, the oil will drain from the filter canisters and the oil cooler into the oil pan. The reason for this is to be able to heat all the oil by warming the oil pan (using the fuel burning coolant heater exhaust).
The fuel burning coolant heater also has a circulation pump in it's "HI" mode of operation to help things along. It also has its own thermostat to keep the coolant within the range of about 120 to 160 degrees. It runs continuously and switches between "HI" and "LO" modes as needed,

The multifuel thermostat is rated at 180°F and will not open before that. I have "cooked" a few in a pot on the stove with a digital thermocouple type thermometer to verify that. It will be fully open about 10 degrees above that as stated.

Keep up investigating this engine, there is a lot to learn as you'll find out.

 

[quarkz]

Thanx greenjeepster.

Informative video. Even though I had one of those thermostats in my box of spares, I never had to replace mine. A look at the internals of the system really helps.

Anyone looking to get rid of one of the fuel burning coolant heater w/ circulation pump that Bjorn mentioned above?

On a related topic: Water is a pretty neat material too.

It goes from it's least dense gas phase, cools to a denser liquid phase, then cools even more but becomes less dense again. Unlike all the other liquids on this world.

Good thing it does too. otherwise all the frozen ice on ponds would sink, squish the fish, push cold water to the top to freeze until all the water in the pond was frozen.

Then it would take nearly forever for the heat to melt the lowest portions of the ice. And the bottom layers of ice would grow thicker and faster every winter season.

Instead the ice floats on the denser water and through thermal equaliberation drains the heat away from the earth, through the water so it can fully melt as the warmer temps return.

 

[greenjeepster]

Interesting analogy on the ice.... Anybody who lives in the north will also know that before a lake will freeze it has to "turn over". As the water cools at the surface the warmer water at the bottom is forced upwards by the colder water sinking. This movement of water oxygenates the lake for the winter and helps keep the critters alive. Once all the water in a lake turns over the lake will begin to freeze.

I have a fuel fired heater I would part with....but I don't think I have the pump for it anymore. Also don't know if it works.... I would like to find a complete one.