Vegoil destroys engines?

[SandMan]

howdy all - been toying with the idea of investing in a deuce as a side project for a while now but don't yet have the funds. one of the attractive features I've been eying is the multifuel engine that supposedly burns just about any liquid hydrocarbon out there (at the very least in some proportion with diesel), especially WVO. in my browsing on alternative fuels, I found this unsettling document

http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/ema_svo.pdf

which seems to claim that burning any raw oil utterly destroys engines. thoughts? it doesn't sound like any of you folks have had problems, but the document says otherwise.

(nearly) free fuel would be a huge plus for my bank account.

Sand

 

[papercu]

fuel

in modern diesel engines.

I would think the above words in your link tells the whole story, the engine in these trucks are not modern by any means and are designed to handle different fuels. Wayne

 

[cranetruck]

Interseting, but some of the statements may not be accurate for heated veggie oil. Good start for a research project.
Usually, veggie oil will reduce exhaust emissions and it also adds lubricity to the fuel.

 

[superburban]

Consider the source. biodiesel.org has a vested interest in discouraging WVO use.

 

[No.2Diesel]

Welcome! Yeah David Clarks!! What do you fly?


The only thing remotely dangerous to an engine could be a fuel or additives that are corrosive to soft lines in the fuel system, which don't exist in WVO. If you had a gas engine and wanted to switch to an alcohol/race gas mixture without improving the fuel system or carb, then you'd have a problem. I wouldn't give it a second thought with a multifuel.

 

[SandMan]

don't actually fly...that was just the best picture of myself I could find. I was a passenger in an S&R heli in northern canada, just along for the ride.

thanks for the input everyone. any additional advice for a potential future deuce owner would be much appreciated. aside from that, I'll be browsing and making full use of the ever touted Search function.

 

[cranetruck]

Re: RE: Vegoil destroys engines?

....
The only thing remotely dangerous to an engine could be a fuel or additives that are corrosive to soft lines in the fuel system, which don't exist in WVO.....

The veggie oil is slightly acid and that is another reason to have a dual tank system, so that the filters, pump etc can be flushed with regular diesel before shut-down. I'm definetely a two tank man.

 

[area52]

RE: Re: RE: Vegoil destroys engines?

Just as a side note, you don't need a "mulitifuel engine" to run waste veggie oil (WVO), all compression ignition engines i.e. diesels are capable of running on veggie oil when properly equipped.

 

[wreckerman893]

I have been on several WVO forums and most problems occur when the oil is not heated enough or sent through the IP with no heat.
This can cause "coking" which results in the buildup of a lot of carbon in the heads and around the valves. This is the most common reason for engine failure according to most of the folks that are rabid WVO fans.
When I get my duece I am going to run a two tank system like Cranetruck is doing.
If I can afford it I will use the automatic switching valves, otherwise I'll do the purging manually.
I hope the popularity of these systems don't cause the supply to dry up or get expensive.

 

[builder77]

I am planning on going with a one tank system with thinned WVO. I figure I will at least give it a try for now while it is warm. The key of course being a high degree of filtration, and thinning the WVO with diesel, kerosene, or gas. Maybe a bit of acetone too. This way just like biodiesel and heated WVO it will have similar viscosity as diesel so as not to cause IP problems. I will be adding a small fuel heater before the filters too just to make sure that no fats fall out of the fuel and clog the filters. I have wondered if adding heat to the WVO actually reduces the coking or can cause it too? Coking I would assume is caused by over heated fuel that did not burn. I had thought that it was mostly a problem of the injectors where some type of older injectors had a sac on the inside of the where unsprayed fuel sits and cooks. I assume also that the addition of lighter fuels will help with cleaner combustion too.

I have been looking at some of the interesting threads on other forums on water injection too as a way to "steam clean" the combustion chamber. I know others use this to cool the exhaust temps and if adding methonal to boost the power a bit. Lots of interesting ideas out there.

 

[ken]

Bjorn, Could you use some test strips and let us know about how acidic the bio/WVO is? I figure results will vary between batches. But i'd like to see about where it's at. Thanks

 

[cranetruck]

Ken, here are some measurements using an electronic pH meter:

WVO, un-contaminated from the restaurant fryer: 6.0 (acidic)
Un-washed biodiesel: 8.5 (caustic)
Washed biodiesel: 7.0 (neutral)

I use a mix of unwashed biodiesel and WVO, so the pH may be close to neutral, don't know, haven't measured it.

 

[TheBuggyman]

If time is money, does the use of this fuel really save you that much? It would seem that there is alot of hassle and if you do it right, added equipment.
I know that there will be a "my fuel cost me $.22/gal!" But if it takes 2 hours to make 50 gallons of fuel (I do not know, just throwing out a number) would it not be just as effective to just go fill up?

I'm not posting this to put down alternatives to straight diesel, I am very curious on how much it ACTUALLY costs (materials, additives, time, initial investment of equipment ammortized over, say, 15 years, etc...)

Again, if one who is educated on the subject and is actually using this fuel source could step foward and break it all down to how much it really costs to put 50 gallons in a tank I would very much like to read it.

Let's just use $50/hr as a figure that you could be earning in lieu of the time making the fuel. I realize that it will be more or less depending on locale but that's a nice round figure.

 

[SierraHotel]

Bjorn posted an estimate awhile ago. I'm not sure if his opinion has changed since. Of course, he has been a little distracted lately with his new toy...
This is Bojorn's estimate"
"When time comes for a trip, like the last one to GA/FL, during which I used some 110 gallons of BD plus WVO, the actual cost at the time was very little for fuel, the 1,200 mile trip cost me less than $300, which included purchases at Wayne's place, food, supplies and some additional diesel. Figure $600 for the trip if regular diesel had been used exclusively.
To keep cost down, I spent the nights at truck stops sleeping in the cab of the deuce. Shower plus food at ea stop cost perhaps $20/night.
With my 50-50 mix of BD and WVO, the cost/gallon of fuel is about $0.40/gallon, which doesn't include the cost in time to prepare the stuff.
Cost to prepare the deuce with dual tank, heated tank, valves, controls etc has been spread out over a year, but is probably $500 or so for parts alone. Probably more if I added in all the wrong parts that were purchsed, solenoid valves that didn't perform for example."

 

[cranetruck]

Yeah Bo, I have been distracted by the 8x8. Of course, it too gets a dual heated fuel tank system.
Messing with biodiesel and veggie oil is a hazzle and you need a space to work and free time to do it. It can also be very messy, just read what happened to Chris (steelsoldiers) a couple of months ago when he spilled gallons of fish smelling WVO in his 5-ton.
It also requires special handling for a long trip. I made a rack for the bed to hold about 60 "cubies" of bio fuels (see images below).
It also requires cooperative friends along the way to discard of empty containers (see stacks by the truck in images below).
It's not possible to put a price tag on this, the WVO is free, but fresh restaurant fryer oil can also be purchased for about $3.20/gallon and poured directly into the fuel tank.

 

[Recovry4x4]

Bjorn, right now a bunch of those cubies are storing "black gold". A special mix of diesel fuel mixed with filtererd mootor oil. Thanks.

 

[SierraHotel]

fresh restaurant fryer oil can also be purchased for about $3.20/gallon and poured directly into the fuel tank.

Does that mean that if diesel fuel goes above the current price of new fryer oil (plus taxes), you can dump straight veggie oil straight in the tank with no issues (other than blending with diesel or having a 2 tank setup)?
Sorry if I wasn’t paying attention before.

 

[jwaller]

yup. thats right.

 

[cranetruck]

On a summer time road trip, the fuel in the standard tank gets to about 125°F simply from the warm return flow.
If you know that you'll be keeping the fuel warm this way, you can easily run on a 50/50 mix of VO and diesel. It may only be a little harder than normal to start the truck next morning....

 

[5tonpuller]

WVO

I put some in 3 jar and 1 left it out in the sun. The other in a cool garage. The last one
I tried to put in the frig. ( wife had other ideas ) sh*t. The two jars seemed not to be
much thicker if at all then the other. The frig test is next. For the colder time of the year
I run straight fuel. The other fuel thread tells of my exploits.
My $0.05 worth.