Ventilated Multifuel engines, Turbo or Non-Turbo?

[rdixiemiller]

We have all seen or heard of the infamous #6 rod through the block on the Multifuel engine.
Question: Is it just the turbo engines? Or were the NA engines subject to the same sort of failure?
I was wondering if tapping the oil gallery for the turbo feed line had significantly reduced the oil pressure/volume available for the mains and rods.

Let's see if anyone has seen or experienced a NA engine pitching a rod through the side.

 

[JDToumanian]

It isn't always rod #6...

 

[M543A2]

It is my opinion from my experiences to date that failures like this are not the fault of turbo/non turbo or fuel settings. It has to do with mechanical problems relating to bearings, failed fasteners, incorrect torques, low oil level, incorrect oil. Starting and driving habits also can be the cause. There are a lot of these engines in White farm tractors also that spend hour after hour in the field under heavy load with very dependable service. They are turbocharged, and most are turned up. The oil pumps have plenty of volume to handle the added demand of the turbo.
Marti

 

[rdixiemiller]

I understand about the farm tractor models, they have different oil filters too. I was just curious if the engines started ventilating more often when the turbo kits started being installed. I agree the oil pump has plenty of volume once everything is pressurized. I was just wondering if the turbo addition made it take longer to build oil pressure on startup. This engine takes longer than I like to build pressure. Most of your wear is caused by the dry startup. Until the pressurized oil floats the rod bearings, they take a good bit of pounding.
I'm just a little curious about a few things. Not trying to get everyone all wound up.

 

[m139h2otruck]

Having been in the construction industry for over 30 years, I have seen a lot of diesel engines with very high hours on them, and the biggest factor in long life is maintenance. In the late '70s we bought 2 new French built 100,000 pound excavators with aircooled engines that went over 12,500 hrs with only oil/filter changes and valve adjustments. If these engines were in trucks, at an average speed of 30 mph, that would be over 350,000 miles. A good friend in the gravel and asphalt business got over 45,000 hours on a pit loader (Cat 966) with 2 inframe rebuilds and then traded it in. Over the road truckers easily get 500,000 miles on motors before inframe rebuilds, and there are many stories out there about 5.9 Dodge motors with over 300,000 miles (10,000 hrs at 30 mph) on them. The multi's are still just a medium duty truck/tractor engine and if you can't get 8-10,000 hours on them something else is wrong. Like M543A2 said, the engine's life is being cut short due to operator error (overspeed down hill!) or lack of maintenance. Unfortunately, the short trips and low speed/idling time on these trucks as we are all using them is the worst case condition for long engine life. Again, the most important thing is to change the oil!! I also will add (again) that the slow oil pressure rise on cold startup should be checked with a mechanical gage as the electric stock units can't be trusted.
Thanks for listening.

 

[rdixiemiller]

True. I need to change out the electrical unit for a mechanical type and see what I get.

 

[cranetruck]

I used a mechanical for some measurements and there are still delays...

 

[cranetruck]

Driving habits are a biggie, I searched for info on my XM757 and how it was used in Europe hauling Pershing missiles around. These are some responses from a Yahoo group:

....Oh yes! The little sign on the dash read "NO FREE WHEELING" I loved to free wheel. It was challenge to see how fast you can go down hill and then at the very last minute you have to brake and shift into a low gear to stop that 5 ton mother....

...Didn't have any driving class in '67-68. One day, 1st Sgt. Meese asked me if I knew how to drive. I said I did so he hands me a piece of paper and said "Study this, you're getting a license." On the paper was a bunch of European road signs and what they mean. The next day, about 20 of us rode to Goppingen and took our "driving test" and passed. No on-the-road test, no vehicle-specific test, just road signs! A couple of days later I was the proud driver of a 2-1/2. Had to teach myself how to work it (if it didn't make loud grinding noises I must have done the right thing).....

...In retrospect, we did good considering we drove in a foreign country with big trucks and with trailer in most cases. No one had the time or inclination to teach us. It goes to show you that none of us had enough fear or could not be intimidated enough to know how dangerous it really was....

One veteran driver insisted that the LDS465-2 was redlined at 3,000 rpm (the TM states 2,800).

 

[JDToumanian]

Like M543A2 said, the engine's life is being cut short due to operator error (overspeed down hill!) or lack of maintenance.

Have you been following the threads about adding spin-on filters / pre-lube pumps? I now believe quite strongly that the relatively short life span of the multifuel engines is due to a combination of antiquated cartridge type oil filters, which are mounted upside-down, and the fact that there is no anti-drainback valve. This allows the oil in the filters to drain back into the pan, bringing crud from the filters with it... and causes the 12+ seconds of no oil pressure at startup.

If these oil system problems could be solved, I think 300k+ miles, and tens of thousands of hours between overhauls would become the norm for our multifuels.

Regards,
Jon

 

[houdel]

My thought is that the #6 rod is at the bottom of the food chain (the last bearing in the oil supply chain). Every other bearing in the engine sees higher pressure and oil flow rates than the #6 rod bearing. Maybe that explains why the #6 rod is often the first to go.

 

[steelsoldiers]

Wow, JD, that really is a window'ed block!!

 

[JDToumanian]

Yeah, I love that picture... I get a lot of posting mileage out of it, but it ain't mine! I grabbed it from an older post here. I think Kenny (recovry4x4) took the pic... definitely looks like FL in the background.

 

[Crazy_Matt]

So how hard would it be to convert to different filter?

 

[tbrenner]

So how hard would it be to convert to different filter?

Check out some of the other posts on oil filters. Most of that is covered in there. I should have something ready in a couple months.

 

[Recovry4x4]

I think Kenny (recovry4x4) took the pic... definitely looks like FL in the background.

Yeah, thats one of my ventilated engines. Great parts source and the price was right.

 

[cranetruck]

Wonder if the drain-back feature is related to sub zero operation and the use of the arctic kit to heat the oil prior to pumping it thru the engine...that's operation down to -65°F...

 

[M543A2]

For one of my "thought about, but haven't done it yet" ideas is one to help the oil pressure delay. I have several hydraulic accumulators taken off industrial machinery. I thought one of these connected to an oil pressure galley with a valve controlled from the cab would be a good idea. It would be charged with pressured oil when the engine was running. Before shutting down, the valve to the accumulator would be closed, storing the oil and pressure. As soon as the engine lights, the valve would be opened to immediately supply the pressured oil to the engine oil galley. I'll have to get to it sometime. My priority project was putting one of the Southwind multifuel coolant heaters on my M543A2. That puppy heats the engine quickly, melting snow on the hood in about 15 minutes!
Regards Marti

 

[houdel]

The hydraulic accumulator sounds like a decent idea. You'd probably need at least a 1-2 gallon accumulator (2 quarts to fill the filters, another quart or two to fill the galleries, and a little excess to keep oil flowing while you crank & start the engine).

You could take a tap off the oil sender with a very small orifice to slowly refill the accumulator over say 15 minutes so you are not significantly decreasing your oil pressure, and a check valve to prevent the accumulated oil from flowing back into the engine when it is not running.

Then an electric solenoid and an oil line to the drain plug below the oil filters and you would be in business. Once the accumulator is filled and you are ready to start the engine, activate the solenoid for 15-20 seconds or until the oil pressure gauge starts to move and start her up! Sounds like a plan to me.

 

[cranetruck]

You'll need to heat the oil to make it flow at sub zero temps....
The oil cooler holds about a quart also, I need to check that.

 

[houdel]

Doesn't the oil flow out of the filters into the bottom of the cooler and then exit the cooler at the top?