Vertical Solar Panels

[Third From Texas]

Interesting..

I like the idea. I've been eyeballing bi-facial panels after seeing some reviews. My goal is to free up the roof space and retain the "observation deck" aspect. Bonus for now having a small perimeter fence around the top deck. But I'd not seen the "why" vertical panels do better.

 

[zebedee]

Got to love all the science - I can just imagine all the "Huh?"s...

 

[MatthewWBailey]

Interesting..

I like the idea. I've been eyeballing bi-facial panels after seeing some reviews. My goal is to free up the roof space and retain the "observation deck" aspect. Bonus for now having a small perimeter fence around the top deck. But I'd not seen the "why" vertical panels do better.

No harm in testing it on a small scale

 

[hike]

This is cool, thank you for sharing. We have talked about mounting the panels on hinges so that we may deploy them based upon what latitude we are at, though vertical would be easier than adjustable angles. The smaller format Over Easy Solar looks to be almost made for RV tops.

Looking at the Bi-facial units the cost difference doesn't appear great enough to not try them out–

 

[MatthewWBailey]

This is cool, thank you for sharing. We have talked about mounting the panels on hinges so that we may deploy them based upon what latitude we are at, though vertical would be easier than adjustable angles. The smaller format Over Easy Solar looks to be almost made for RV tops.

Looking at the Bi-facial units the cost difference doesn't appear great enough to not try them out–

Bifacials frequently deployed on white EDPM and similar commercial flat roofs due to the substantive indirect lighting effects. So if you can work that indirect lighting, it's beneficial to go bifacial. The vertical dynamic is more about benefits of lower temp. PV panels operate solely on the infrared frequency of sunlight which is also the heat frequency. Eliminating some of that heat is apparently the reason for the vertical performance

 

[Guyfang]

The fact that output is affected by Heat, has long been known. Nothing new here. Vertical PV is virtually unknown here in Germany. I installed PV for the 5th largest PV company in Germany, for over 10 years. We never, ever, installed a vertical Panel. Not one. If you go to one of the cheap construction products stores, and buy a 300 euro cheapo three panel set up, to hang from your balcony, you will see vertical PV. But serious PV? Not even.

I am retired, (again) but am going in to talk to the boss in the next two weeks. If I don't forget I will ask him about this. Perhaps its something new and wonderful. The Company established an Energy Academy, that teaches people and businesses, all aspects of PV, not just construction. If I can get one of the egg heads to stand still and explain it to me, and then translate it, I will post here. Its is an interesting idea.


I can see some problems right off. But they deal with extremely large installations. They would not effect something like Third From Texas wants to try. Very interesting.

 

[MatthewWBailey]

All Enginerring is application specific. This is a new twist that clearly has some applications tailored to it, so great. More options for more applications. There is no singular solution for all applications. The video says "Have we been doing it wrong?" well No, that's just click bait obviously. It's like saying we should've waited to own and drive cars until EFI was invented bc all those carbs were "doing it wrong". Today I invented fire, tomorrow I'll invent a fire extinguisher.

 

[hike]

The fact that output is affected by Heat, has long been known. Nothing new here. Vertical PV is virtually unknown here in Germany. I installed PV for the 5th largest PV company in Germany, for over 10 years. We never, ever, installed a vertical Panel. Not one. If you go to one of the cheap construction products stores, and buy a 300 euro cheapo three panel set up, to hang from your balcony, you will see vertical PV. But serious PV? Not even.

I am retired, (again) but am going in to talk to the boss in the next two weeks. If I don't forget I will ask him about this. Perhaps its something new and wonderful. The Company established an Energy Academy, that teaches people and businesses, all aspects of PV, not just construction. If I can get one of the egg heads to stand still and explain it to me, and then translate it, I will post here. Its is an interesting idea.


I can see some problems right off. But they deal with extremely large installations. They would not effect something like Third From Texas wants to try. Very interesting.

One of my non-engineer thoughts was if we are mounting atop our white habitat bi-facial and the height above the ground, not hidden behind a parapet will have good air flow. Still thinking about whether horizontal, angled, vertical makes the most sense.

Horizontal would be fixed a set distance above the white habitat roof. Though it will be difficult to keep the roof clean overtime.
Angled allows us to maximize a specific time manually and makes cleaning the roof easier.
Vertical allows us to maximize a morning and afternoon and makes cleaning the roof easier, too.

Over time I would think the bifacial units would be best in angled and vertical mounts. Both require raising and lowering during travel.

There are always plusses and minuses, still it is good to learn more about the varied ways to deploy technology and our machines—

 

[MatthewWBailey]

One of my non-engineer thoughts was if we are mounting atop our white habitat bi-facial and the height above the ground, not hidden behind a parapet will have good air flow. Still thinking about whether horizontal, angled, vertical makes the most sense.

Horizontal would be fixed a set distance above the white habitat roof. Though it will be difficult to keep the roof clean overtime.
Angled allows us to maximize a specific time manually and makes cleaning the roof easier.
Vertical allows us to maximize a morning and afternoon and makes cleaning the roof easier, too.

Over time I would think the bifacial units would be best in angled and vertical mounts. Both require raising and lowering during travel.

There are always plusses and minuses, still it is good to learn more about the varied ways to deploy technology and our machines—

As a vehicle You're combining a few annoying parameters that like to be fixed so it's impossible to "optimize". All fixed solar installs have to live with the azimuth and tilt selected, and the lat/Lon of the site, which we try to game. But As a mobile green-fighting-machine, you're changing lat/Lon, azimuth, and tilt all the time. My attitude is that you need to have the most flexibility with tilt in order to optimize. So bifacials flat on the white, reflective roof of the habitat with some cool mechanism to lift them manually up to 45deg+ tilt would be the most optimization. You can point the truck to 90 or 270 as available. You can go nuts with auto tracking the tilt too but that's more expense.

Also, no sense in trying to max out early morning or late afternoon times since the solar irradiance/m3 is drastically lower beyond +\- 3hrs from solar noon. It's pitifully low (sun not close) outside that 6hr window unless you're at the equator and even there +\-4hrs at best. So less bang for buck. IMO Shoot for collecting the most power at the peak times and storing it.

 

[hike]

As a vehicle You're combining a few annoying parameters that like to be fixed so it's impossible to "optimize". All fixed solar installs have to live with the azimuth and tilt selected, and the lat/Lon of the site, which we try to game. But As a mobile green-fighting-machine, you're changing lat/Lon, azimuth, and tilt all the time. My attitude is that you need to have the most flexibility with tilt in order to optimize. So bifacials flat on the white, reflective roof of the habitat with some cool mechanism to lift them manually up to 45deg+ tilt would be the most optimization. You can point the truck to 90 or 270 as available. You can go nuts with auto tracking the tilt too but that's more expense.

Also, no sense in trying to max out early morning or late afternoon times since the solar irradiance/m3 is drastically lower beyond +\- 3hrs from solar noon. It's pitifully low (sun not close) outside that 6hr window unless you're at the equator and even there +\-4hrs at best. So less bang for buck. IMO Shoot for collecting the most power at the peak times and storing it.

You bring up a great point: store it.

I have wondered if it would best to enlarge the battery bank capacity rather than the solar recharge capacity. With a correctly designed system a 24v 200a alternator could provide 4,000 watts nominally once the starter batteries are charged. Perhaps having a larger habitat battery bank and avoiding conversion to AC appliances is a better path? Good conservation could provide days of power and take advantage of recharging on long drives between campsites—

 

[MatthewWBailey]

You bring up a great point: store it.

I have wondered if it would best to enlarge the battery bank capacity rather than the solar recharge capacity. With a correctly designed system a 24v 200a alternator could provide 4,000 watts nominally once the starter batteries are charged. Perhaps having a larger habitat battery bank and avoiding conversion to AC appliances is a better path? Good conservation could provide days of power and take advantage of recharging on long drives between campsites—

It's a natural landing point when you start down this path of due diligence. Solar hours are not reliable (weather) and solar irradiance is only about 1kw per square meter at sea level. So given a small rooftop area (even on a big truck), it's not enough to provide continuous kw demand by itself. Hence the reason EVs are not solar powered. You need large area for large kw demand. However, as you said, the solution is a larger storage. Combining them makes for a resilient system. A conservative design size is 3:1 for kWh stored vs kWh daily load projection (average) if you're only relying on the solar hours to recharge. 3:1 comes from 6 solar hours charging (while you're using power), 12 hours not. (The other 6 you're asleep and there's little to no load). This is a rough scaling but a practical starting point. If you then add the vehicle as a charge source, you're reducing the ratio down from 3:1 to a lower amount. It's just a duty cycle of loading vs recharging.
Whatever your daily kWh load calc is, I'd have 1.5-2x that as a kWh storage, and a simple, practically sized (not small) PV on the roof like @aw113sgte. I like propane fridges and stoves, which reduces your electric.
Most batt storage systems in homes use the utility as the backup charge source bc the PV may be shaded (weather) so there has to be a source. The 200a alt will do this perfectly.
It's a 3 headed monster of PV, Alternator, and batt. Balancing all 3 is the best

 

[aw113sgte]

I like the idea. I looked at bifacials with hinges but opted for standard panels due to simplicity. Trying to make the truck as reliable as possible so simplicity and modularity are key factors.
To raise the panels with snow load on them would require a very substantial lifting mechanism.
I'm also considering putting panels on the sides that can be tilted out, for awnings. That's a future project though.
For energy, the biggest user by far is the mini split heat pump. Calculating energy need is very tough since it relies so much on insulation, outdoor temp. For colder weather a diesel heater is available and it takes far less electrical energy.
I'll be running about 15kWh batteries and have a 3000w generator as a backup, 2200w solar array.
We will see how it works!

 

[hike]

I like the idea. I looked at bifacials with hinges but opted for standard panels due to simplicity. Trying to make the truck as reliable as possible so simplicity and modularity are key factors.
To raise the panels with snow load on them would require a very substantial lifting mechanism.
I'm also considering putting panels on the sides that can be tilted out, for awnings. That's a future project though.
For energy, the biggest user by far is the mini split heat pump. Calculating energy need is very tough since it relies so much on insulation, outdoor temp. For colder weather a diesel heater is available and it takes far less electrical energy.
I'll be running about 15kWh batteries and have a 3000w generator as a backup, 2200w solar array.
We will see how it works!

@Keith Knight built two layers of solar. When traveling one sits under the other. When camping the lower layer pushes out as an awning doubling his solar surface—

 

[Keith Knight]

Just saw this thread, lots of great ideas. I can share with you our 10 months on the road in eastern US, rarely staying more than one night at the same location and always prefer staying in the woods somewhere like national forests.
4ea 325 watt solar panels on top of the roof full time.
4 more under the top panels that are deployed using pneumatic cylinders/actuators. Press a button and the go out press another button and the go in.
Solar 2,600 watts of solar total when parked in an open area. Note only when you are confident that no one with a rig taller than your panels that they can do a close drive by and cause damage. That happened once we were fortunate our solar structure was stronger than the fiberglass fifth wheel.
Batteries 8ea 200 amph 12v total 1,600/19.2kwh
5,000 watt inver
12kw mini split 120v
All electric cooking with 2 burner induction cooktop, ninja all in one toaster oven.
12v Dometic full size rv fridge freezer
Diesel hydronic heater for water and habitat.
3,500 watt back up gas generator with 50 gallons of fuel for that alone.

We’ve never needed to connect to shore power during any season running AC and heat as needed.
Things I like, because you can’t always choose the direction to park in flat panels work in every direction as long as you can see the sky. Interesting fun fact on a cloudy day we start producing power earlier than a clear day. That whole light refraction thing.
The air space between the panels and the roof significantly reduced heat inside the habitat. And when deployed they make a great shade for the side of the vehicle and keeps the rain off the windows. Having hinged panels would possibly block your windows while inside and in situations where you can’t raise them.
My wife is a great cook and loves to do so. So all this is based on truly living out of it full time.
We can go approximately 3-4 days during the cloudiest rainy days and recharge the batteries with just the generator from 40 percent to 100 in about 4 hours using about a gallon of fuel.
Winter is a more challenging time with less sun at a lower angles and then if you are in a valley.

 

[akistem]

I'm just embarking on the journey of importing an LMTV into Canada. I had read the same vertical vs horizontal article as the OP and have been contemplating vertical config for transport and then variable position via a hydraulic system for an awning when parked. Real rough mock up below to ensure the angles and stroke length/cylinder size work.

 

[aw113sgte]

I'm just embarking on the journey of importing an LMTV into Canada. I had read the same vertical vs horizontal article as the OP and have been contemplating vertical config for transport and then variable position via a hydraulic system for an awning when parked. Real rough mock up below to ensure the angles and stroke length/cylinder size work.

View attachment 920097

You said it's a rough sketch so maybe this is already thought out, but as you have it shown the pivot is axial to the cylinder when in the retracted position. This would put all force from the cylinder into the pivot and the panel wouldn't move.

 

[ckouba]

Everyone's restraint and planning is different, but I would be very cautious about putting panels on the side of the rig. These rigs are wide enough and I've already collected more pinstripes than I imagined I would ever get on my paneling. I cringe at thinking about what damage might have been done if I had solar panels on the sides.

This is even being quite careful with it... Literally the first time I had it out, on the first dirt road we went on, it went from a wide open double track to a SxS trail within about 200' and two or three corners. There was no turning around and I didn't think it'd be that narrow and go on for as long as it did. Backing out would have sucked as well, so we failed forward and have the "patina" to show for it. Even being cautious about it, we've again had a few instances of trying to fit the 10 pound truck down the 5 pound road. It will happen.

 

[aw113sgte]

Everyone's restraint and planning is different, but I would be very cautious about putting panels on the side of the rig. These rigs are wide enough and I've already collected more pinstripes than I imagined I would ever get on my paneling. I cringe at thinking about what damage might have been done if I had solar panels on the sides.

This is even being quite careful with it... Literally the first time I had it out, on the first dirt road we went on, it went from a wide open double track to a SxS trail within about 200' and two or three corners. There was no turning around and I didn't think it'd be that narrow and go on for as long as it did. Backing out would have sucked as well, so we failed forward and have the "patina" to show for it. Even being cautious about it, we've again had a few instances of trying to fit the 10 pound truck down the 5 pound road. It will happen.

Good point, side panels likely a no-go.

 

[MatthewWBailey]

Everyone's restraint and planning is different, but I would be very cautious about putting panels on the side of the rig. These rigs are wide enough and I've already collected more pinstripes than I imagined I would ever get on my paneling. I cringe at thinking about what damage might have been done if I had solar panels on the sides.

This is even being quite careful with it... Literally the first time I had it out, on the first dirt road we went on, it went from a wide open double track to a SxS trail within about 200' and two or three corners. There was no turning around and I didn't think it'd be that narrow and go on for as long as it did. Backing out would have sucked as well, so we failed forward and have the "patina" to show for it. Even being cautious about it, we've again had a few instances of trying to fit the 10 pound truck down the 5 pound road. It will happen.

I like the 10lb truck analogy. I noticed how tight things can get on trail roads. Scrapey! With PV, Verticals have to be open on both sides for true functionality. And low lying sun has a crappy power level. So I'm not a fan of that. The @Keith Knight layout is really awesome imo and he could always have the whole rack slide to the side for an awning and then have a tilt too if needed. But just as is, his production will be great in clear sky between 9 and 3. Another tidbit, the extra s.f. of extra panels makes up for lack of tilt with a smaller array, how's it go?-no replacement for displacement. So if you need more production, adding 2 more panels is more effective than a little tilt. Shockingly, Snow can be swept off so not really an impediment

 

[hike]

I like @Keith Knight set up. Simple, redundant, more wind proof, functional–