WA state cancelling MV titles

[swiss]

Ladies and Gentlemen

The answers are in my previous post. Have any of you reviewed the US Code 49 and the NHTSA rulings?


SB 392 corrects problems with Title 40 of the Official Code of Georgia. This amendment would also bring the O.C.G.A into compliance with The Federal Code of Regulations. The following points summarize the changes to Title 40 that comprise SB 392.

• Creates a new definition for “Former Military Vehicle” that is consistent with other states that have similar laws. Specific examples are Florida, Texas and Wisconsin.
• Corrects the O.C.G.A to properly reflect that all vehicles 25 years or older are exempt from Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards, FMVSS. This is outlined in US Code 49 U.S.C. 30112(b)(9)
• Corrects the O.C.G.A to properly reflect that vehicles newer than 25 years of age and manufactured for use by the United States Armed Forces are exempt from FMVSS and Emissions Standards per rulings by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) and Federal Code.

 

[KN6KXR]

For that matter USC 49, 30112(b)(1) would apply as you bought it in good faith from the US Gov't, have an SF97 to prove it, and it's not for resale.

It's nice that they voted it through in GA. Here in PRC (People's Republic of California) I would have to author a bill of the same, get somebody to sponsor it, get it through the legislature, etc... The state that just outlawed the sale of fossil fuel powered vehicles from 2035 onwards. They care not for federal law and will cite "state's rights". Chances are slim and none here.

What I CAN do is take the USC to my local powertrippers at the DMV and ask them if they feel like defending the DMV when I file my case. There's no law particularly prohibiting MV's and therefore they are federally non-compliant and hence liable in the absence of codified state law indicating otherwise. "Go ahead, make my day!"

That actually worked BTW. CA CHP didn't want to do my VIN inspection so I told him to sign that he refused so I have evidence when I go to court. He signed it anyway and I eventually got my plates.

 

[jerretbotch]

Can anyone tell me which DMVs (or the city) they've had success getting an on road title through?

 

[Mainsail]

I went to a licensing office in Bremerton and everything was going smoothly until they got to the six digit VIN, then the computer choked. The clerk called the State, and the person there told the clerk WA does not issue on-road titles or registration for the HMMWVs.

So I'm currently waiting on Vermont to send me some plates (they won't title anything older than 15 years unless you live there). I plan to drive on VT plates unless/until I'm grieved by LE, at which point I'll do a legal trust in VT and transfer it into the trust. I may not even wait, I may just do that ahead of time - still noodling it. Out of state plates are pretty common out here in Kitsap with all the navy bases, so the plate won't stand out even if the vehicle does.

A few days ago a friend told me about another HMMWV owner that walked into some licensing office and walked out with a plate.

 

[Mainsail]

What I'm currently wondering is if I should go ahead and get the WA off-highway title even though I'll be running VT plates. The advantage is the State cannot accuse me of registering in VT to avoid the WA sales tax, since I'll have to pay them that for the off-highway title. Thats the part they seem very sensitive about; registering out of state to avoid tax. Alternatively, I could go to the licensing office and offer to pay the sales tax but I don't know of a mechanism for that. Ultimately, it would be a difficult charge since they can't say I registered in VT to avoid tax when they don't offer the option of registering in WA anyway. I registered in VT because (1) WA wouldn't, and (2) WA doesn't offer the Air Medal license plate that honors my service, both valid reasons to register in VT.

 

[KN6KXR]

My advice....

Get your VT plates and title. Transfer to your state. If they push back ask them if they are not doing state reciprocity. If they say they aren't, or if they get to discriminate, take down the names of the officials document the event be obvious about it. Then get all your paper and get out of there.

Then go to a different office and try again. It's obvious that the state needs to honor out of state titles. Not doing so would be a shitstorm between states and likely a violation of federal law. At some point you'll run into an office that isn't trying to push an illegal agenda.

Another option, my preferred one, is to use a local service. I have a guy that does MV's in my area and he charges $321 plus the DMV fees. I don't know how he does it but it happens. Takes awhile. Somehow he got me out of the sales tax and I got historical plates for my 1986 wrecker. He's working on a 1967 M543A2 for me right now and that vehicle hasn't been registered in 22 years so is out of the system. And the owner died in the middle of trying to renew so I have no titles just a bill of sale from the widow. Before he passed the DMV told him he needed a VIN verify in person and to bring the vehicle etc, etc... So the title went .... someplace. Well the other day I got the receipt in my name with a temp commercial plate number (he non-op's the vehicle to avoid fees). If my last experience with him is any indication then in a few months a set of historical plates will show up. No idea how he does it. Personal relationships and knowing the rules is my guess.

I know it's no use to you but the guy is Ken Leek his biz is Peninsula Registration Services and he's located in Belmont, CA (shameless plug for the guy). I got referred to him at a MV swap meet I kept asking around. Do the same in your area. Go to a swap meet and ask around. Never would have found him on the forums.

 

[Mainsail]

My advice....

Get your VT plates and title. Transfer to your state. If they push back ask them if they are not doing state reciprocity. If they say they aren't, or if they get to discriminate, take down the names of the officials document the event be obvious about it. Then get all your paper and get out of there.

VT will not issue a title because the vehicle is more than 15 years old. They will issue a title for vehicles more than 15 years old but ONLY if you're a VT resident in VT. So right now I have the Montana title that has the Style code of OH (off highway) and eventually VT plates.

Here in WA the vehicle licensing is an independent business and they have a hotline to the State for questions. Regardless of which office I go to the computer system will not accept the six-digit VIN, so the clerk will have to call the State for instructions, at which point the process breaks down. I'm not going to argue with the independent licensing office - it's a waste of time; they don't make or have any input to the laws.

I'm waiting to hear back about the local that walked out with a plate - like where he went and how they handled the VIN issue.

EDIT to add: I have a friend whose wife works for an independent licensing office and I talked to her about the issue. She said they get fined by the State if they issue plates for HMMWVs because WA does not title/register them for on-road use. She was aware of the issue because their office had some drama about it. I suspect there are offices that know how to get past the six-digit VIN problem and will give you a plate, but they're doing so at-risk and there's a chance it will get caught by the State and you'll never get the title in the mail. At that point you have no title whatsoever, and that's not a position I want to be in.

 

[KN6KXR]

CA did that for a long time. No 17 digit VIN then no road title. It was a thing. Obviously any vehicle before that requirement would then be illegal. Stupid logic....

Now it's not their thing. Don't know why. Figure somebody sued them into being sensible? HMMWV's are for sure their thing. Specifically. Even went back and yanked plates from folks. Sounds like WA is repeating CA history.

 

[Micmada]

Yep yep yep. Seem to me a $$ compliance issue. Manufacturers of new trucks have required to pay so much for safety and highway features in order to cut competition compliance out and now they have a hissy fit on people acquiring military vehicles.

So much for serving your country as a soldier or as a MV. We see how it is now. I understand now why ATC jocks keep hating on military combat controllers whose job is actually much harder and non routine, for instance. No one wants to be passed by military skills and materials.

 

[NEIOWA]

There is an election on Tuesday. Wa has been ruled by idiot progs for decades. Turn them out (with their admin drones) and you'll have a good start of fixing the state. Was once a great place to live. I wouldn't even visit today.

 

[G744]

What does Cal do with older/collector cars & trucks?

Thousands of them over there don't have long digit VINs...

 

[KN6KXR]

[

What does Cal do with older/collector cars & trucks?

Thousands of them over there don't have long digit VINs...

They issue titles. It was a made up excuse to deny people. I think somebody finally sued them. I have an M936A2, M817, M542A2 and M35A2 all with titles. Three of them historical plated. The M817 actually has a VIN "USMCxxxxxx" on the title which is really cool.

There are some other tricks they try. Like if it has less than 7500 miles it's "new" and they think you are trying to evade sales tax they will deny title. The law ACTUALLY says it has to have 7500 miles AND be less than 2 years old but they turn tons of folks away on the 7500 mile alone. Totally illegal. Is it because they are stupid? Probably.

Another pain here is "50 state emissions". For some time they made "49 state" motors because that couldn't comply with CARB (California Air Resources Board). If you're bike/car isn't 50 state with the right original sticker you can't get a title. It's a PITA you have to know what's up before you acquire something. Don't get me started on diesels made after 1997/2003 and DPF/DEF what a total boondoggle THAT has been.....

 

[silverstate55]

I have found @98G ’s explanation of the Power Of No to be applicable more often than not.

 

[TechnoWeenie]

Washington DOL just sent me a letter cancelling my LMTV title for not complying with FMVSS. I got it registered with a FL title (I never had an SF97 since gov planet gives you the option of just getting a title). I was hoping to have an attorney proofread my response. Does anyone have recommendations for an attorney familiar with RCW title 46/Title 204 in the Seattle area?

Cheers

They're compliant with FMVSS, because they're exempt from FMVSS. This is per NHTSA and was settled years ago. Even Congress critters got involved. States don't care because they don't want them on the road and have a 'F#%& you, sue us if you don't like it' attitude.

It's not a safety issue, otherwise they'd refuse to title/register the '69 Camaros with no seatbelts and the Model A and T Fords...

It's about control, and money.

 

[montaillou]

Alternatively, I could go to the licensing office and offer to pay the sales tax but I don't know of a mechanism for that.

This would be handled through the WA Dept. of Revenue. People buy big ticket items all the time in OR to avoid sales tax and bring them back to WA. If it's something like a boat or vehicle there's a good chance you'll get busted so there's a provision to pay the sales tax through Revenue.

For people not in the WA-OR area: WA sales tax is 6.5% + what ever it is for your city/county. In some areas this approaches 10%. Oregon doesn't have sales tax. So, you might figure, 'well, my daughter lives in OR, I'll just buy a car there and register it at her address'. Only the cops see this all the time, so if you drive an OR plate around too much, you'll find yourself getting pulled over a lot and if you really live in WA you'll get fined.

 

[BaconFarms]

In WI, before 2014, it was impossible to get a title if you didn't have a title. Actually, a title was worth more than a car, i.e., like a '69 camaro title, etc. Then, in 2014, we went to bonded titles for vehicles without titles and all is well.

Then in 2020, the WI DMV (DOT) became even easier to work with. The new Govenor, unable to get any tax revenue from our legislature, raised vehicle registration fees an additional $100 each, each year, so, yes its a revenue thing. Everyone gets a raise and makes more money, everyone is happy and more helpfull. LOL.

My secret!, go to the "smallest' DMV office you can find, and when they are not busy. Be nice. She will either be nice and help you, or give you grief. If its the latter, ask to talk to her boss. In July I got a new title in my name for a truck I took to auction in October, but when they sold it they noticed that the tilte had the wrong year of truck on it. I picked it up and took it to the local DMV and they told me I had to send it in to the State with this and that form filled out. She agreed that it was the DMV's fault as she could see the original paper work on her screen, but there was nothing she could do (she was very nice, but it was due to her lever of authority) so I asked to talk to her boss. She gave me his card and I left and called him in the parking lot, I explained my situation and he old me to go back in. I told her he was calling and the phone rang, she picked up and she issued my a correct title on the spot. Needed his OK. If I go to my local DMV, I can be the only one in the office, and they have two workers ready to help, but they are only there two days a week. If I go to the big (LOL) city 30 minutes away, I have to take a number and wait 30 or more minutes and they are busy, busy, busy.. No time for non-standard issues, etc. They are open all week, but have a screener at the door who will send you packing if you don't have your ducks in a row.

While I agree, laws need to be created or changed to help with MV's, but that would/will take years and will help future motorists, it would not help with your immediate issue at hand.

Here's a funny for ya. I took my daughter to get her temp license. We walked into the local DMV and went to the counter and told the guy what we were there for and he started to get her stuff ready and started asking me about a old firetruck I had got registered there a couple weeks prior. We chatted for about 15 minute about the truck and another one I was working on and then took our money and said we were all set. The daughter and I turned around an was leaving when my daughter told me she didn't take the test, and I told her to keep walking, you got your temp permit. LOL, we still laugh about that one....

BaconFarms

 

[jerretbotch]

I was recently able to get plates and a title through a local DOL. Happy to discuss what seems to work/where I failed the original tries.

 

[Westo]

Has anyone else in washington gotten one of these notices or is it a pretty limited thing?

 

[TomTime]

Look up, D.O.D. MIL-STD-1180B.

 

[TechnoWeenie]

Has anyone else in washington gotten one of these notices or is it a pretty limited thing?

Another member on the local FB page had the title revoked on his MTV about a week ago.