Water as a fuel

[wallew]

Well, I've uploaded a video file to the gallery that is currently awaiting approval.

BUT it shows a guy who decided to find a better fuel to replace acetylene for welding purposes. He was successful. It even shows him holding the tip of a welding torch with the flame lit. COOL to the touch.

Then it hit him that there MIGHT be other uses for his fuel, which he has dubbed HHO.

So, take a gander of where we will probably all end up in the long run. Vehicles powered by water.

I wonder if they will set up 'water stations'.

Oh, yeah, in his VW station wagon he gets about 25 miles PER OUNCE. That's right. PER OUNCE.

He went 100 miles on about four ounces of water. All of a sudden there will be a HUGE serge of vehicles as the cost of fuel is non existent. Will put the oil companies out of business. FINALLY.

And all those rag heads can go back to hearding camels...

 

[Desert Rat]

But the flipside can be found in one word................. GRIDLOCK.

 

[wallew]

I got a member from Biodieselnow.com to host the video. Apparently it's not valid as a Video Gallery, as it has disappeared.

Here's the link to the video.

http://www.ironsind.com/water_as_fuel.wmv

 

[readyman]

Pseudoscience,
Hope he's not storing the HHO, bad juju.

 

[BFR]

unfortunately those pesky laws of thermodynamics throw a wrench in the works.
While you can generate HHO from water using electrolysis, it will always take more energy to seperate H2O into HHO than can be recovered by burning (oxidizing) HHO (which turns it back into H2O). This means you have to add energy to the system(plug it in).

 

[rdixiemiller]

Yeah, remember the myth of the "vapor carburator"? Supposedly gave 200 MPG and was being suppressed by the "evil oil companies".
I would like to see one of the American based oil companies start commercial bio diesel production. They have the distribution network already in place. I would GLADLY pay the same for bio as dino, because the American farmer would be the one selling the basic oil crop. Keep the money here at home, rather than going to the Mid East and Venezuela.

 

[ida34]

Mythbusters tonight had a show on all the old MPG boosting stuff. It included the vapor carb, the magnet on the fuel line and the hydrogen from water. None worked. They did try wvo in a mercedes and this was the only thing they said worked but they did say that when people figured it out you would not be able to get the oil for free.

 

[wallew]

I'm NOT sure if you watched his video or not. None of you say you did or did not.

His vehicle runs either ONLY on water (broken down to HHO by his device and HHO regulated into the engine) OR only on gas.

He does NOT mix the two.

As far as needing more energy to do what he does, while it's a popular theory put forth by several people I've been debating this with, I personally disagree. You are saying a negative sum game. Perhaps for his welding unit.

But not possible in his vehicle. UNLESS he filled the rest of the car with some form of power generation. PERHAPS a bit larger alternator. But so what? He went 100 miles on FOUR OUNCES of water. No gas involved.

So, still think it's a negative sum 'scheme'?

He's testing his system in a US military hummer. The US military is interested. So is an auto manufacturer. Both of which are looking for opposite things.

The military is looking for an alternative fuel source, regardless of the cost.

The auto manufacturer is looking for an alternative fuel source that they can put in production vehicles that doesn't run THEIR cost up.

If this IS a process that brings us into the 'Age of Aquarius' literally, then perhaps this little speech by Tommy Lee Jones in the first MIB movie might apply:

I always liked what Tommy Lee Jones said to Will Smith in the first MIB movie.

Something like :

"500 years ago EVERYONE KNEW the world was flat"

"TODAY EVERYONE KNOWS there are no aliens"

The point is that THINGS CHANGE. That's about the only constant. THINGS CHANGE. For better or worse, but they still change. This one would put the kibosh on a lot of industries.

Oil and energy come to mind immediately.

Transportation is also on this list.

 

[Ambulancechser]

hydrogen...

hydrogen injection and use in vehicles has been around for years,especially in europe.It has particular relevance for those of us with diesels.It's stupid expensive though.

http://chechfi.ca/tehisyst.htm

 

[ida34]

I would love to hear more about his patented electolysis process. There seemed like alot of fluff in the story. They also said the car was a hybrid gasoline water engine. They said how much water it takes for a 100 mile trip but it did not say how much gasoline it takes for that trip. I hate to contradict you but the video said his car is a hybrid and uses water and gas. It did say the car would run on water only but it is rigged for water and gasoline now. That makes the 4 ounces of water for a 100 mile trip meaningless without knowing how much gasoline it takes for the trip. I hope this is the real deal but it sounds like he is looking for investors. Just because he passes government safety inspections does not mean the government independently has tested the viability of the setup. The way the information was presented really sent up red flags. A lot of fluff with little in the way of hard facts.

 

[wallew]

Chuck,
GO BACK and watch it again. Yes it IS a hybrid. It runs one EITHER GASOLINE OR HIS HHO. Not both at the same time.

The video says that it can run exlusively on water but is currently set up as a hybrid. Go back and watch it again.

So, while he CAN run on EITHER water or gas, he has the ability to run exclusively on water and it appears that's what he does.

Probably a smart idea during the development stage, wouldn't you say? All of this occurs around a one minute thirty second mark in the video.

 

[ida34]

I did watch it twice and now I have seen it three times. It never says he can run on only gas or water but not both. It only says his car is presently set up as a hybrid. Looking at the video I take away that he is running on gas and water, not water exclusively at the time of the video. Understand too that I have little faith in the news getting stuff right. They tend to report stuff as they understand it and they rarely understand it. This is from direct experience with news and the events they report on. I just can't make the assumption that the guy is on the level when he has not gave us any indication of how he has gotten around the laws of thermodynamics. This may be the news reporters fault or his fault but there are no facts presented that mean anything. The fact presented are too vague and not nearly enough information to get me believe that he has done anything revolutionary. I really think the 4 ounces of water is in hybrid mode and again I have to know how many miles to the gallon was being consumed. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I hope with no hard feelings. The video will never convince me this is legit. Still friends I hope.

 

[wallew]

I did watch it twice and now I have seen it three times. It never says he can run on only gas or water but not both. It only says his car is presently set up as a hybrid.

Chuck,
We must NOT be watching the same video. At one minute thirty five seconds (1:35) the voice over says SPECIFICALLY "Klein says his prototype 1994 Ford Escort CAN TRAVEL EXCLUSIVELY ON WATER, but he currently has it rigged to run as a water and gasoline hybrid".

So, try watching it ONE MORE TIME. Then maybe you will understand WHY the military and the auto makers are interested. I do understand why you feel the way you do about the news media. The only problem is I USED TO BE a freelance photojournalist. And I WAS one of the last of the 'old breed' who ACTUALLY only reported what I could ACTUALLY prove myself. There are still a few of us around. Though we are a dying breed.

IF (and that's a HUGE IF) he CAN make this work, like I have said many times, many places he will either be RICHER than Bill Gates or dead.

But given he has the patent, that means the information is available to everyone. Contact the patent office. THEY should be willing to give you a copy of his patent. I think they will. It's been a while since I talked to them.

Sorry Chuck, but in this video it DOES SAY he can run his car exclusively on WATER. Go try watching it again. And yes, NO HARD FEELINGS whatsoever. I just happen to believe that 'laws' are meant to be broken. If he DOES break the laws of thermodynamics, where will all of these so called 'geniuses' that have been selling us this stuff FOREVER end up? Out of a job and out of money.

Cause if laws were NOT meant to be broken, we would all still live in Europe saying the 'world was flat', riding horses, with NO indoor plumbing. YA know what I mean?

 

[JasonS]

BFR said it right. No amount of marketing is going to break the laws of physics. I'll believe it when he gets published in a peer-reviewed journal...

 

[cranetruck]

A patent is usually an improvement on a previous patent.
There are hundreds of patents relating to fuel cell technology, which was first developed in the 60's and probably ten times as many on hybrid cars.
Since this invention mentions a specific amount of water (25 miles/ounce), it would seem to me that a previously patented
process was less efficient and perhaps used a quart of water to do the same thing.
I have my doubts about this being something radically new.
Most patents are available for scrutiny by anybody, that's how improvements are made and one needs to know what the claims are so that infringements can be prevented.
Don't see how it relates to welding, though...

 

[ida34]

Also noteworthy is that something can be patented even though it does not work. The patent office does not care if something works. They only care that you came up with something new that someone else has not patented.

I do see that it says the car can run exclusively on water but it does not specifically say the 4 ounces for 100 miles is with the vehicle running exclusively on water. My post above was long so I edited it and must have lost some of my meaning. I concede that the video states his car can run on only water and it also says it is presently set up as a water gas hybrid. It just never does tell us in what mode he achieved the 4 ounces for 100 miles. This is my biggest hangup with the piece, aside from his invention violating the laws of thermodynamics. I am not saying that something revolutionary can't happen but it would not be by a variation of electrolysis. It would have to be a totally new approach. I must also admit that I did not pay too much attention to the part about cutting and welding so I can't comment. I will say that every torch tip does not get too hot since the heat is ahead of the tip. In fact the flame should never touch the tip. The hottest part is usually at the tip of the blue flame as I understand it. If the tip got up to the temps of the cutting flame then the torch tip would melt also even thought it is only a few inches away from the max temp area of the flame. Maybe some of the welders can speak to this as I am an amateur welder at best.

 

[ida34]

Alright. After some internet searching I have found out that his process is a variation on a process called brown's gas and it takes alot of energy to seperate the gases. Hear is a comment from a website I found.

Comment by NEC member, Eric Kreig, on May 13, 2006

Ouch! - this is the kind of misleading story that drives public ignorance about energy and fuel. Fox was very irresponsible in their choice of words to call water a fuel. Water is not a fuel, it can be a source material to create an inefficient fuel, the gas HHO - which is the fuel and NOT water. Water is to the gas HHO what ash is to wood. Dennis Lee does a scam to make people think water can be used to power things - it can't , water is the waste product. Gases are dangerous and hard to store and hard to compress - they do not do an efficient job of temporarily storing energy. The best way to use water to store energy is to pump it to an uphill storage tank - that way only has about an 20% energy loss compared with typical total 70- 90% loss rates of using electrical power to separate water into gas, and then harnessing the energy available by burning it.
The gas produced by separating water is dangerous and has been called many things including Browns gas. It has been available for years from many sources. These machines are heavy and suck in a lot more power than you ever get out of them by burning the gas back into water. Around 15 years of promoting browns gas for welding, cutting, etc haven't seem to have made much of an impact on the world of working metal.


Hear is the website. http://peswiki.com/energy/Directory:Hydrogen_Technology_Applications_Inc

Reading some ot the info on his website it seems that I would need to buy a $7000 machine he sells to covert the water to brown's gas. The details of the auto prototype are not really explained. It does say that fuel milage is increased by 22% to 100% over present vehicles. This means best estimate from them is a 20mpg car can get 40mpg. This would be great if true but it is hardly just putting the water in the tank and running on it exclusively. I really think that the guy is making the brown's gas in his machine. He then transfers the gas to the car to boost millage. The car is not generating the brown's gas. To make his machine work you need electricity and the car would need to produce this for his machine to convert the water on the fly and I don't think he is doing this yet. Even taking info from his website it looks like the fox report was very misleading.

 

[wallew]

Chuck,
I do appreciate the concession. No harm no foul. And you are correct about the fact that the story NEVER ACTUALLY SAYS how he uses the water. Be it an independent fuel source or not.

My ONLY point to this whole thing is this. Prior to the infernal combustion engine, man only got as far as either his or his horses legs could carry him.

Then we went to steam. Then electricity, then fossil fuels, then nuclear fusion. My point is that we have barely scratched the surface of the ability to make energy in all sorts of ways.

I know all about peswiki. I've got one for everyone else. It's called a Joe cell. Everyone says it's hooey. That's kewl. I still think Tesla had more brains than anyone before him or since. And his theories on aetheric energy are a HUGE disagreement in many circles.

ONE OF THESE DAYS SOMEONE WILL BREAK THOSE LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS. Cold fusion, water as fuel, Joe Cell, I don't know as I cracked my crystal ball the last time we moved. BUT it WILL happen. And all us 'old guys' will just have to learn how to 'fly' all over again.

Speaking of flying, back in the fifties EVERYONE was talking about flying cars. The first prototypes have already been tested. Will we ALL be flying anytime soon? I don't know. I DO know that the one thing that IS CONSTANT IS THAT THINGS CHANGE.

I tip my hat to you sir. And hope one day we can sit down and have a good laugh over this one. I'll buy the first round.

jim

 

[cranetruck]

Well spoken Jim! Wish I could write like that, although I'm no fan of straight line projections.

 

[ida34]

To clarify my position. I am not saying that change does not occur. I am more commenting on the news article and the information that is presented on the man's website. I am not saying that innovation can't occur but I don't think this is the case with this man. On this particular point I am not convinced by the video and website that he has made a great advancement that can change the world tomorrow. Like Bjorn said, advancement is usually an incremental process. Only now has battery technology advanced to the point that electric cars are marginally feasible for everyday use. The article and guys website makes it seem that in the next few years we are going to just pull out the garden hose to fuel out vehicles. This does not seem the case and his process is not nearly as revolutionary as it looked in the video. He may is using a process that has been around since the 60's and he probably has created a more efficient process using todays technology. I was not really commenting on what kind of innovation he really has made because he never gave us the information on what his innovation was other than vague predictions. I commented on the presentation which left me feeling like this was more of a scam than a truly viable water fueled vehicle concept. Every year people come up with innovations. Some work well like the DVD and some work like the Beta-max and even more are like copper bracelets. After reading his material on his website it seems more likely that he has a system to augment the mileage on a gas vehicle. The machine he uses for the electrolysis is plugged into an outlet so the question is how much electricity does it take to create the HHO gas? Does this cost less then just going out and getting a cylinder of Hydrogen gas? I can see it being easier to just fill a tank with water and make your own HHO because you are eliminating transportation and middle man costs of the gas collection. This in and of itself has the possibility of making the process cheaper than getting hydrogen cylinders. One still has to recoup enough savings to recover the $7000 for the initial cost of the machine. The figures are easy to come up with. How much electricity does it take to generate x amount of HHO gas. Then you can figure a cost per unit of HHO and compare it to the cost of simply buying hydrogen gas. The military does not really care about cost because the may be operating in a theater of operations that may not have a hydrogen gas supplier in town to buy from. Many things the military does are not economically viable and would not work for normal citizens. All this guy has to do is provide these simple to compute figures. Even home heating appliances can give you a breakdown of how much energy they consume to give you so many BTUs of heat. He seems not willing to dicuss the issue on his website and that would be a way to shut up his detractors quickly.

PS. I only argue with people that I care enough about to change their opinion. If I argue I care. If I state my opinion and walk away, then I don't care to expend the energy to change your opinion. I have enjoyed the discussion and the research that I have done as a result of the discussion.