Water to air intercooler, Charge air cooler, Aftercooler...

[merlot566jka]

I am probably going to buy a water to air intercooler and add it to my deuce in the next month. I have some training in sea going and industrial diesels, and they call them after coolers and charge air coolers. Whatever you may call them, I want one!

I was looking at civy trucks to see if anyone has a setup like that. I found on a couple cummins/duramax forums people have tried the popular chinese made water to air coolers that can be bought online. Thier results were most impressive! As were most turbo gasoline cars I have seen results posted for.

So as you would expect, the bigger the intercooler core, the bigger the radiator; the cooler your post turbo air charge. But the advantage here, over what a normal air to air intercooler has, is that there is virtually no pressure loss due to the cooler.

My plans are to try out the cheap water to air intercoolers I can buy online. I will buy one that is larger than the capacity of our engine. I will post test results measuring EGT, Boost PSI, and Intake temp. As of now, I am at 1100* EGT and 11psi boost at wot up a steep grade. I will turn up the fuel once the EGT goes down.

The goals:
Decrease EGT
Increase Power
Increase MPG
Do something fun

I will post a total cost analysis... but I can tell you already it would take almost 9000 miles of driving if this improved 1mpg to pay for itself....






For those of you who have no idea what I am talking about, I will try to explain.
Air to water intercooler uses a core similar to a heater core. On the wet side of the core, water is plumbed through. On the dry side, your turbos compressed air, that is really hot, is pushed through the core. As the air moves over and about the core, the water inside removes the heat through thermal heat transfer and conduction. The turbo compressed air is now cooler and more dense, which meants it can burn more fuel. The hot water from the wet side of the core is now pumped into what is essientially a radiator and is cooled to ambient or lower temprature. Then that cold water is pumped back through the same loop, cooling the charge air. And so on.
Some facts:
The radiator is often smaller than a normal car radiator.
The fluid capacity is usually about 2-4 gallons.
The pump is often a bilge pump, or Bosch cobra (ford)
Some use ice water for drag racing and use no radiator.
The core is much smaller than what a normal air to air intercooler core is.
The core flows air much better than you would think, there is virtually no loss.

 

[doghead]

The intake manifold is water jacketed and therefore regulates the intake air temp. You will need to eliminate that somehow to make an inter-cooler work.

 

[Jones]

I talked to the techs at one of the larger air-to-air cooler manufacturers and their take on things was that the turbo stuffed air in so fast that the intercooler added no measurable lag time or pressure drop. The only exception would be an intercooler that's too small to provide ample air flow for the engine's needs.

I've always thought that air-to-air seemed like it would give better cooling as ambient air temps are always lower than coolant temps.
The water/air set-ups that do make sense are the marine applications where you're circulating the same water you're floating on/running through.

 

[jwaller]

water injection is much cheaper, quicker, and more effictive and efficient.

 

[merlot566jka]

Doghead,
I have read another intercooler thread where you said the exact same thing.

I do believe some where on here that it has been tested and shown that it was only 3* different than what entered the intake, from the intake temp regulator.

But I do agree to an extent. I do think that the water flowing around the intake manifold could heat up the air charge. But I do not think it will hinder the results any. This same theory has been put to use on gasoline performance engines for sometime now. I drive a 96 corvette, with the LT4. The intake manifold does not have coolant running through it like the older small block engines do. Yet the air entering the cylinders is the same temp as the older small blocks that have the heated intake manifolds...what gives?
For a while there were several ebayers selling kits to eliminate your "trottle body intake heater" for multiple cars. This was a gimick. There is no change in intake temprature once you stop the flow of coolant to it during normal driving in average tempratures. There isnt enough surface area of the metal to conduct the heat away from the coolant and into the air. Sure it might cause thermal loading or heat saturation of the manifold itself, but without the proper surface area, it will be hard to get the heat out of the coolant and into the air.

Think about a radiator, heater core, or steam radiator... Why do they have fins? is it to increase the surface area so that the heat can be conducted away from the medium and into the air?
Does the Deuces intake manifold have fins inside of the runners or log? No. It is not an intake charge heater or cooler. It is to prevent the moisture in the air from freezing inside of the manifold, and was likely an original design of the non-turbo engine, just carried over to the turbo variant.

Now where this would make a difference is in sub zero tempratures where air entering the engine is well below zero and could cause icing of the intake manifold. This would be bad. Thats a reason why most cars engines have some way of heating the throttle/carb. (well carbs were heated for atomization as well)

But wait, there is more! We can calculate this and put it to test....
We can measure the amount of surface area inside the intake manifold.
We can measure the average temperature of the coolant entering the manifold.
We can meausre the temperature of the air flowing through the manifold.
We can measure the speed of the air (on avg I suppose) moving through the manifold.
We can assume the heat transfer rate of the aluminum the intake manifold is made of.
We can approximate the amount of air that makes surface contact with the casting flash inside of the intake.
Then...
We can calculate the heat transfer from the walls of the intake manifold to the air flowing through.

or we can safely assume that 180* water flowing around a tube of air moving at 400cfm isnt going to significantly heat the air.
if it did, I wouldnt be paying big bucks for house hold heating.

 

[merlot566jka]

Jones, I agree. Air to air works well when properly set up. But when thinking about the deuce, its going to be a bit of a pain to route all of the tubes and find a place for the intercooler. Thats the main reason for the water to air... was the size of the package.

Jwaller,
eh, that means I have to fill it up constantly. And it only runs part time. The thought of pumping water into an engine just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I have friends who have used these systems on suparcharged gas engines, and turbo diesels. I have seen the lowered charge temps and the resultant increased boost. but these were race engines or drag strip only setups. I dont know anyone who runs them constantly. In my deuce, while driving up a mountain pass, I will be at 1100* for several minutes. On a long trip I will be filling up that resivior frequently. and bottles of washer fluid arent free, that will add to the cost of the system....cheaper than a water to air setup? initially, yes. Long run... who knows.

 

[doghead]

How much water/weight do you plan to haul, to have enough water to cool with before it heats up too?

 

[212sparky]

sounds interesting, keep us posted with your findings

 

[73m819]

It seems that the multi has run MILLIONS of miles collectively with a surprising low number of failures BECAUSE it is a fairly simple design, easy to maintain,. it does what is designed to do, a well maintained deuce multi will get 10-12 mpg. The more the multi is screwed with and made to be like a CIVI engine, the higher the failed rate.

There is reason KISS works

 

[TexAndy]

10 to 12 mpg? How? Strapped down to a flatbed trailer?

 

[merlot566jka]

How much water/weight do you plan to haul, to have enough water to cool with before it heats up too?

About 3 gallons. It is pumped through a radiator and cooled and returned to the circuit. The same way the coolant on an engine is cooled. The coolant used inside of the aftercooler is almost the same as the engines coolant, well it could be exactly the same mix, just not on the same system. 50% anti-freeze and 50% distilled water.

The radiator is cooled by either a fan or by moving air from the vehicle traveling at speed or both. It can even be sprayed with CO2 or another cold gas to give it an extra effect on cooling the charge air.

Some use a tank, like a coolant overflow, to store extra fluid for the system. I might do this if I see there isnt enough fluid in the system, but I think with the core, radiator and 1" lines I will have plenty of fluid.

 

[doghead]

Any pictures or drawings of what you plan to do?


How much total intake air temp reduction do you think you can get and how much more power will that accomplish?

 

[merlot566jka]

I love to tinker. KISS is a brilliant concept, but too simple for me. haha. If I grenade it because I jacked around with it too much, then so be it. I look at it as the engine is a $1000 learning toy. I expect it to blow up one day as the result of something I did. I know its not a civi engine, I know it never will compare. But I can still apply some basic things to it and see if I get the desired results. Who knows, maybe I might actually improve on the tried and true design of the multifuel!

Tex,
Ya know, I was thinking the same thing. I get about 8mpg unloaded. Alot of people say 10-12mpg, others say 7-9. I wish I got 10-12!

 

[Rustygears]

As I recall, there's a pressure activated servo on the turbo that acts asa waste gate - right? If you do achieve the cooling of the air through the cooler, that means the boost will drop, keeping the same mass flow. It's boyle's law. Unless you also increase the outlet pressure of the turbo's compressor to maintain the cooler's outlet pressure, you won't achieve any increase in air mass flow and no resultant performance increase. You'll just have the same performance at a lowered maximum boost. One way to compensate would be to move the hose sensing the pressure from the turbo compressor outlet to the cooler outlet.

Turbos work because they stuff more air mass into the cylinder than occurs at normal atmospheric pressure, effectively increasing the compression ratio of the engine.

 

[merlot566jka]

Doghead, I will see if I can draw something up in paint real fast. I am on the mighty USS Abraham Lincoln somewhere in the pacific ocean so I am unsure if I will beable to get the picture to load once I draw it.

 

[merlot566jka]

Rusty, there isnt a wastegate on most deuces. I am pretty sure that was the 5tons (LDS)only, unless it was retro fitted.
But even then, the wategate operates the exhaust side of the turbo and uses the PSI from the intake side to regulate the amount the wategate is opened.
When air is cooled, it becomes more dense. It does not drop the amount of pressure significatly. Regardless if the pressure is lower after it is cooled, the wastegates function is to regulate boost based on intake pressure. So if we cool it and it is now 2 PIS lower, the wastegate will remain closed just a little bit longer so it builds that two PSI.

I thought boyles law had to do with ideal gases kept at constant temprature...and the variance was in the volume and pressure being inversly proportional? (its been a few years since my last science class)

 

[merlot566jka]

still working on a pic of the front of the truck.

the water in to the bilge pump and out of the core go to the radiator.
the intake manifold inlet will be modified, I am going to make a plate and weld a 2.5" pipe to it.
The hoses from the turbo, core and intake will all be silicone bends/reducers and pipe will be used when needed.
the inlet and outlet on the air side of the core is 3"
the bilge pump is rated at 1500hrs, 12v
the radiator hoses will be 1" or 3/4"

the radiator will be mounted infront of the decue's radiator, with no fan initially. if a fan is needed I will find a new location for the radiator. the deuces fan draws a ton of air, and the radiator for the cooler is thin and small, shouldnt cause any restriction and the deuces fan should work just fine.

the core is 12"X9"X5" and rated for 70psi over 700cfm

 

[HanksDeuce]

I used to own a 2004 Ford Mustang Cobra that had an Eaton supercharger bolted on top from the factory. Below the supercharger was the water-to-air intercooler and below that was the intake manifold. The intercooler used a small 12v pump that circulated a water/coolant mix through a separate cooling system. It was equipped with a reservoir tank, heat exchanger in front of the radiator, pump, intercooler core, hoses and an electrical pigtail to the pump.

In Photoshop I put together a schematic of what the system looks like.

Evans sells a water-to-air intercooler kit that is efficient up to 1200HP. I doubt the M35A2 will push those limits.


- This is a vendor that sells the OEM intercooler pump
- This is a vendor that sells the heat exchanger and fluid reservoir
- This is the vendor for the intercooler kit

 

[ODdave]

FWIW, my deuce gets 10.5 with a 105 in the back and flat towing a 1028 behind it.

 

[merlot566jka]

Hank,
Exactly what I was thinking! The intercooler kit you show an image of is actually made by a company called www.frozenboost.com they offer several kits, peices and parts to configure the whole set up. These are manufactured in China and sold to practically anyone who wants to buy a large quantity of them. Several other companies are selling the same thing with different style radiators, fans, hoses, pumps and fittings.
The end tanks on the coolers are configured in many different ways to allow for easy fitment into almost any vehicle. I am planning on purchasing the "600 hp" kit. I think it will be more than enough for the deuce.

ODDave,
Are you running 9.00x20's? I think larger tires would lower the cruise rpm enough to make a mileage difference.