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Where's the Land-Rover Section?

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TehTDK

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Scott,

Don't hold me to the actual number. But when I was going through G-wagon classification in March, one of the other students asked about the landies and was told by one of the instructors that the landies proved more expensive overall compared to the G-Wagons. And that the danish armed forces could get 2-3 G-wagons for each landie that they procured. I would take it for what it is, but I take it that what I see sort of also speaks for itself, there are a lot more G-wagons in our inventory opposed to the LR's.

But I can see you have a G-wagon yourself, so now I am curious as to what the .421 stands for?

But presently the G-wagon inventory of the Danish Armed Forces (Army, Navy, Air-force & National Guard) consists of the following models:

460 Models
240 GD

461 Models
290 GD TD

463 Models

G 270 CDI
G 280 CDI
 

FrankUSMC

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I have a 1944 British BSA M20 motorcycle, and getting ready to drop the hammer on a Series II military Land Rover to keep the M20 company. I will keep you posted...ok, if we get the land Rover section, I will keep you posted.
One of the few, Frank USMC RET
 

scottgs

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... was told by one of the instructors that the landies proved more expensive overall compared to the G-Wagons....
This I would not doubt at all. The Land Rovers can be failure prone, and are no doubt less reliable overall than the simpler Diesel G-Wagens used by the military. However, I would not catagorize the Lightweight Land Rover as an unreliable vehicle. I believe they are substaintially more reliable then many military vehicles out there, mainly due to thier sheer simplicity. With a few simple upgraded modern components, the reliability goes way up. The Landie problems are well defined and solvable. I also believe that the Landie would be the ultimate survivor of the two, too, due to it's ease of repair and sheer simplicity. The G is on the other end of the spectrum. I dread the day that my G-Wagen fails in the outback.

.... And that the danish armed forces could get 2-3 G-wagons for each landie that they procured....
I just don't see how that's possible. The G-Wagon is made of better stuff, more stuff, and at a higher engineering and labor cost. I've never in my life heard of a comparably spec'd Land Rover costing more than a G-wagen. I simply can't believe that anyone, anywhere, could buy 2 or 3 G-Wagens for the price of 1 Land-Rover.

...But I can see you have a G-wagon yourself, so now I am curious as to what the .421 stands for
That is part of the vehicle chassis number. The 463.421 is the complete number. This is a G500, which is the second generation 4-door. I love the truck and it's my daily driver. But to be completely honest, I enjoy the Land-Rover much more when running the trails, and it's more capable off-road, mainly due to it's much lighter weight. I need to mention that my Land Rover has Locking diffs front/rear, just like the G-Wagen. But the G is just heavy. On the road, the G-Wagen is absolutely suburb for an old-fashioned solid-axle Military vehicle design. Much better behaved and much more comfortable than the Land-Rover. If the world as we know it ended tomorrow, and I had to get somewhere no matter what driving one of these two vehicles, I would chose the Landie. Why? Because it will run on most any quality of fuel, the fuel system can be primed by hand and then started with a hand-crank, it has no electronics whatsoever in the ignition or fuel system, it's better off road, and if it breaks, I have a decent chance of fixing it. But this is a little apple and oranges.

Garret
 
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TehTDK

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This I would not doubt at all. The Land Rovers can be failure prone, and are no doubt less reliable overall than the simpler Diesel G-Wagens used by the military. However, I would not catagorize the Lightweight Land Rover as an unreliable vehicle. I believe they are substaintially more reliable then many military vehicles out there, mainly due to thier sheer simplicity. With a few simple upgraded modern components, the reliability goes way up. The Landie problems are well defined and solvable. I also believe that the Landie would be the ultimate survivor of the two, too, due to it's ease of repair and sheer simplicity. The G is on the other end of the spectrum. I dread the day that my G-Wagen fails in the outback.
I don't hold Landies with that high of regard. The general consensus I get when I ask about them is that when they go they go and that they are good offroad.... when they work. If something breaks be prepared for the big wallet to pay. BUT that might just be related to the more "modern" Landies and Range Rovers ie that as more electronics and driver aides are added, the more expensive it gets to fix if something breaks.

I just don't see how that's possible. The G-Wagon is made of better stuff, more stuff, and at a higher engineering and labor cost. I've never in my life heard of a comparably spec'd Land Rover costing more than a G-wagen. I simply can't believe that anyone, anywhere, could buy 2 or 3 G-Wagens for the price of 1 Land-Rover.
Well I "think" and thats a big think that it might be down to the fact that the G-Wagons we get don't have a lot of driver aides or comforts :). The 290 I was trained on was prepared for Anti-Lock Brakes, but they weren't installed, ie. So basically almost bare metal vehicles. Most of the G-wagons used here have canvas tops, so basically only a front window and no real doors much like a willys jeep. But there is the odd ones with a canvas top and real doors and even fewer with an actual metal roof etc, but they do exist.

That is part of the vehicle chassis number. The 463.421 is the complete number. This is a G500, which is the second generation 4-door. I love the truck and it's my daily driver. But to be completely honest, I enjoy the Land-Rover much more when running the trails, and it's more capable off-road, mainly due to it's much lighter weight. I need to mention that my Land Rover has Locking diffs front/rear, just like the G-Wagen. But the G is just heavy. On the road, the G-Wagen is absolutely suburb for an old-fashioned solid-axle Military vehicle design. Much better behaved and much more comfortable than the Land-Rover. If the world as we know it ended tomorrow, and I had to get somewhere no matter what driving one of these two vehicles, I would chose the Landie. Why? Because it will run on most any quality of fuel, the fuel system can be primed by hand and then started with a hand-crank, it has no electronics whatsoever in the ignition or fuel system, it's better off road, and if it breaks, I have a decent chance of fixing it. But this is a little apple and oranges.
And as humans we are each entitled to our own opinion, but both sitting as the passanger in a G-wagon with the instructor behind the wheel, as well as driving one myself I would tend to err more towards the G-Wagon as opposed to the Landie. But that view is also coloured by the fact that I have never actually driven in one, so that opinion might change when/if that happens. Personally I have no reason to believe either of these vehicles aren't capable off road, but whether one might be better then the other will be hard to prove or test since I would suspect a lot of driver skill and familiarity with the vehicle might tip the scales either way. All I know was that our instructors didn't have much praise to give in regards to the landies, but that being said the landies we procured might have been the most cheap and saddest version available (typical military acquisition OP). But i agree, saying one is better then the other would be hard to define as it depends on what you really expect and want :).

But if I owned a G500 I would be a bit hesitant to take it offroading, as opposed to buying an old Military 290GD or a G270-280 CDI and using that offroad since I "know" how they are built up as we inspected it before taking it out. But is your G500 equipped with the same features as the 270-290s?, ie with the underside skids to ride on the terrain so that the belly of the beast is at least somewhat protected from skidding contact with the terrain etc. Because if they are more or less identical apart from yours having the bigger engine then my hesitation would be equally less :)

But in regards to the topic I at least wouldn't have an issue with bringing the Land-Rovers into the fold, considering the Land-Rover name as well as the various bodystyles having been changed or adapted to fit battlefield conditions (ie pinkies etc.)
 
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barefootin

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I have a 1944 British BSA M20 motorcycle, and getting ready to drop the hammer on a Series II military Land Rover to keep the M20 company. I will keep you posted...ok, if we get the land Rover section, I will keep you posted.
One of the few, Frank USMC RET
If you pull the trigger post pic's on a Land Rover Thread or PM me.. I came very close to bringing an "air portable" over from across the pond last year to keep my wife and my D1's and M35a2 company....
 

scottgs

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...But in regards to the topic I at least wouldn't have an issue with bringing the Land-Rovers into the fold, considering the Land-Rover name as well as the various bodystyles having been changed or adapted to fit battlefield conditions (ie pinkies etc.)
I find this last statement curious. Do you feel that there are only a few "body styles" that were changed for military use? I'm not sure I follow. Certainly there have been civilian Land Rovers with Military adapted bodies, but there are many purpose-designed military Land Rovers, not just changed "body styles". I would hazard a guess that Land Rover has been in the top few most prolific and consistent manufacturers of Western Military Vehicles since WWII. Though it does appear Military production is waning in recent years, with Land Rover focusing production more towards the civilian luxury market, allowing vehicles like the G-Wagen to take up a lot of the slack in Military markets.

For what it's worth, last weekend at a recent Military Vehicle Display at the Tennessee Museum of Aviation, of the 12 Military vehicles on display, 3 were Military Land Rovers. :)
 

scottgs

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...is your G500 equipped with the same features as the 270-290s?, ie with the underside skids to ride on the terrain so that the belly of the beast is at least somewhat protected from skidding contact with the terrain etc. Because if they are more or less identical apart from yours having the bigger engine then my hesitation would be equally less :)...
From what I've seen my 463.421 G500 is pretty much the same as any other 463 chassis, which is considered stronger than the earlier 460 and 461 chassis (G270 etc.) Mine does have skidplates front, center and rear, and front/rear diff locks, 2-speed transfer case etc. It is a very tough truck, in my opinion, and I have had it off-road. Like I mentioned in our previous cost discussion, I believe the G-Wagen is made of better stuff, and better engineered than most anything in it's class. If you ever get the chance to go to the factory at Graz and ride on the Schockl test track, they will do everything possible to make you a believer of this.

I've had my current Military Land Rover Lightweight for about 27 years, and the G-wagen for almost 10 years. I still enjoy the Landie more off-road, and it would probably be my "go-to" vehicle at the end of the world, well... unless the snow was getting really deep or I needed something bigger, in which case I'd just take the Unimog - the best 4x4 in the whole universe. :-D

Garret
 

scottgs

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Just for the record, here in Knoxville at a local D-Day anniversay event, a Military Land Rover was in the front of the vehicle display, and the British National Anthem was played right along with the Star Spangled Banner. But there were no Volvo's. Tatras, Urals, GAZ's or other such vehicles there...

I think it's high time that Steel Soldiers remember who our allies are, whether WWI, WWII, the Cold War, Desert Storm, Iraq or Afghanistan.

Garret
 

zebedee

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I think it's high time that Steel Soldiers remember who our allies are, whether WWI, WWII, the Cold War, Desert Storm, Iraq or Afghanistan.
Garret
Garret - I don't think that the general population of S/S is forgetting the allies of the US. There are also the Danes, Aussies, Kiwis etc.. etc... And to conflict the WWI &WWII part of your statement, the Germans, Italians and Japanese are now all of our allies.
Since I have lived in the States - I have been amazed how outwardly patriotic this country is - flying flags at any occasion, singing your national anthem for EVERY sporting event etc. Try flying the Union Jack in the UK and you'll get a ticket! - well, that used to be the case anyway. Might offend a minority!
I don't think that the lack of a LR forum is anti allie, BUT as I mentioned in post #16, the smattering of "wierd" vehicles is somewhat lost on the masses. Agreed - to nearly everyone elses military, the LR has been the back bone for the smaller vehicles, but like football (you can read "soccer") probably No1 sport in the rest of the world, but try read about David Beckham on a NFL forum and you'll be looking pretty hard.
Yes - lots of folks in the States would love to check out a 'Pinkie' up close - as with the Ferrets, Stallies, Dingos, FV432's etc., etc. Each needing a seperate here, probably not going to happen.

Keep putting "Land Rover" in your subject titles and us LR nuts will be there!

Regards.
 

scottgs

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You're right. I don't think the general population here forgets who our allies are. But I think they do forget the fact that they don't all drive Jeeps and HMMWV's.

But I'm still irked everytime I come here and there's no Land Rover forum, yet there are are still forums for the weirdo esoteric trucks of our former enemies. Land Rover's make it to the Steel Soldier rallies, to the parades and other events, and like you say have been the backbone of many of our allies, fighting on our side in time of war. And also, unlike a significant portion of those esoteric trucks with thier own forum here, at least the Landies are Battle proven.

Dang, there I did it again, preaching to the choir.

:)
 
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TehTDK

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Garret,

I would actually like to drive one of the G-wagons on that kind of test track but I don't think MB would allow it :p. And Graz as in some place in the US or here in EU?. Sorry if I come off a bit ignorant in this regard, but I don't actually know where the G-wagons are actually built :). I have however ridden in the back of a Unimog years ago (2000-2002) since the Danish Armed Forces aren't using them anyone and one of the drivers told me that they were more or less impossible to get stuck and that if it happened then it was driver error more then anything. Honestly I wasn't too impressed with its non-syncro gearbox requiring double clutching and what not, and neither did most drivers :p.

But I don't knock its off-road capabilities. But in general I would assume its as much down to driver skill and knowledge as it is the vehicle itself, that determines whether you are succesfull in an off-road scenario or not :)
 

scottgs

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...Graz as in some place in the US or here in EU?. ...
Graz, Austria, is where the G-wagen is produced under contract for Mercedes Benz. Magna Steyr, formerly Steyr-Daimler-Puch (of Steyr Rifle fame) builds it. The same company that designed and built the Pinzgauer (although it's built in the UK now), and the Haflinger, and many other trucks including the WWII Steyr 1500 4x4 trucks, and the modern Steyr 12M series, which is the basis of the US Military's new Family of Medium Tactical Vehicles (FMTV) that has replaced the USA's venerable M35 and M809, M920 series of trucks. Anyway, they have a good off-road test track there called "Schoeckl" Mountain.

...I have however ridden in the back of a Unimog years ago (2000-2002) .... Honestly I wasn't too impressed with its non-syncro gearbox requiring double clutching and what not, and neither did most drivers ...
That's puzzling. As I thought that all Unimogs have fully Synchronized main gearbox. At least all I have ever driven were synchronized, and they seem to work well. Even the road and working gear range change is sychronized. The only non-syncro Unimog gears I know of are the crawler gear range engagement.

Since we were talking G-Wagens, it's worth noting that the G-Wagen has a synchronized transfer case. About the only truck I can recall with such a thing.


...But in general I would assume its as much down to driver skill and knowledge as it is the vehicle itself, that determines whether you are succesfull in an off-road scenario or not :)
I agree completely. Driver skill makes more difference than any amount of power, gears, lockers, axles and tires!

Garret
 

Mercunimog404

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Garret,

I would actually like to drive one of the G-wagons on that kind of test track but I don't think MB would allow it :p. And Graz as in some place in the US or here in EU?. Sorry if I come off a bit ignorant in this regard, but I don't actually know where the G-wagons are actually built :). I have however ridden in the back of a Unimog years ago (2000-2002) since the Danish Armed Forces aren't using them anyone and one of the drivers told me that they were more or less impossible to get stuck and that if it happened then it was driver error more then anything. Honestly I wasn't too impressed with its non-syncro gearbox requiring double clutching and what not, and neither did most drivers :p.

But I don't knock its off-road capabilities. But in general I would assume its as much down to driver skill and knowledge as it is the vehicle itself, that determines whether you are succesfull in an off-road scenario or not :)
All unimog trannies have been syncrod since day one.
 

zebedee

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I think we need a seperate flaming "G-Wagon" thread, so us Roverites don't get all confused by clicking in when the thread reappears. :-|
 

scottgs

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Yeah, a we need a seperate G-Wagon forum! not just a thread! Sorry about going off topic.

So, what do y'all think about all those Aussie Military Land-Rover Perenties which were just auctioned off? Did you see the prices the 6x6's brought?


Land-Rover forever!!!
 

Whiterabbit

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Ha! Thought this Land Rover thing was over? :patracy:
100_1464.jpg100_1555.jpg
I'm all for a Military LR forum and here's my thinking on it. Yes, there are some really good LR forums out there but most if not all of the military Rover forums are foreign based. Nothing really out there for Americans owning these iconic Military vehicles.
 

scottgs

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Last weekend's rally had 5 Military Land Rovers show up. Just here in little ole East Tennessee.

I still believe it's a shame that we are discriminated against on Steel Soldiers. Land Rovers are at the Steel Soldiers Rallies, and will be again in a few weeks. I haven't noticed any Tatras, Urals, ZILs or Bradleys there... all of which makes me feel not just discriminated against, but really, just downright insulted.
 
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