Who paid for ABS upgrade?

[bchauvette]

We all know at this point that the ABS upgrade was to resolve the torque converter not unlocking during a panic stop. The $50,000 question is why not get the vendor to fix the "defective" torque converters. The answer may lie in who paid for the upgrade the vendor or Mr./Mrs./Ms. Taxpayer. Does anybody have the definitive answer? Does anybody know how much the upgrades cost? How can you get that kind if information?

If you can drop the transmission without pulling the engine it seems taking out the torque converter to be not much more involved than doing an ABS upgrade.

I would have loved to have a M944 going around doing ABS upgrades
Please no political comment.

 

[NDT]

I suspect since the M939 series passed the punishing TACOM testing in the early 80's, AM General told Uncle "this is your problem, it passed acceptance testing". Lots of soldiers lost their lives over this design flaw.

 

[OilfieldRoughneck]

So a m923 with ABS shouldn't have that issue?

 

[Tow4]

So a m923 with ABS shouldn't have that issue?

ABS is there to prevent the rear wheels from locking in a panic stop and stalling the engine. So yes, in theory, ABS should solve that problem.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

I paid for it twice...just like I did for the truck.

 

[bchauvette]

Wouldn't you think that if the torque converter is defective you would have the supplier pay for and/or fix the torque converter? If the torque converter supplier paid for the ABS upgrade then fine. It looks like it went from a tremendous out lay to a tremedious profit.

Seriously if anybody knows the reasoning I very much would like to hear it.

 

[patracy]

I suspect since the M939 series passed the punishing TACOM testing in the early 80's, AM General told Uncle "this is your problem, it passed acceptance testing". Lots of soldiers lost their lives over this design flaw.

This.

 

[Castle Bravo]

I read that the total program cost of the M939 ABS upgrade was $75,000,000.00. If theres 40,000 M939*/A1/A2 trucks, thats $1,875.00 per truck.

*including A0s

 

[Castle Bravo]

Furthermore -

In FY95, the M939 Truck was responsible for 26% of the total Army Military Vehicle (AMV) accidents and 53% of the total AMV fatalities. In FY90-FY95 timeframe, there were 194 serious accidents resulting in injury costs of $8.1 million, property damage of $2.9 million, 163 serious injuries and 46 fatalities. There are 32,000 M939 trucks worldwide that must have the anti-lock brake system applied. Additionally, 11,700 basic M939 series* trucks are having their bias tires upgraded to radial tires as part of modification program to further improve vehicle safety.

The FY 2003 Budget Estimate also says specifically $74,200,000.00 for the total program cost of M939 ABS upgrade.

$74,200,000 / 32,000 = $2318.75 per.

It also says $82,500,000.00 for the M939 tire upgrades. Presumably this is only the M939 vehicles, not including A1s and A2s.I don't have any numbers to back this up, but I get the feeling that there were more 939A2s and 939A1s made than 939s.



*A0 Haha!

 

[MuleMac01]

Tire upgrades?

 

[CARNAC]

If this is getting your panties in a wad , you could find a lot more true stories out there.

Please que that song from Disney's Frozen. Let it go, let it go......

 

[Gunzy]

With the numbers put up in Castle Bravos post the tire upgrade was on 11,700 "Basic" M939(A0) series trucks. If the tire funding was in fact $82,500,000 that would equate to $7058.28 per truck for tires. Figure 11 tires per truck that is just pennies above $641 a tire.

 

[NDT]

Tire upgrades?

The M939 series came from the factory with 11.00-20 NDCC (Non Directional Cross Country) tires, the upgrade is the Goodyear G177.

 

[Bandit02]

I read that the total program cost of the M939 ABS upgrade was $75,000,000.00. If theres 40,000 M939*/A1/A2 trucks, thats $1,875.00 per truck.

*including A0s

That's pretty cheap for a ABS upgrade. If all the parts, labour and engineering to make it all work on that application for $1875 is a good deal. Plus a lil profit too didn't hurt.

 

[IsaLandr]

With the numbers put up in Castle Bravos post the tire upgrade was on 11,700 "Basic" M939(A0) series trucks. If the tire funding was in fact $82,500,000 that would equate to $7058.28 per truck for tires. Figure 11 tires per truck that is just pennies above $641 a tire.

Last time I checked, sometime last year, that's not too much less than the current cost for new G177 in the size our trucks use. These tires are *expensive*. Goodyears generally always are, though. The 315/75R16 Wrangler Duratracs on our Centurion are only marginally less expensive than the G177s.

 

[IsaLandr]

Wouldn't you think that if the torque converter is defective you would have the supplier pay for and/or fix the torque converter? If the torque converter supplier paid for the ABS upgrade then fine. It looks like it went from a tremendous out lay to a tremedious profit.

Seriously if anybody knows the reasoning I very much would like to hear it.

I'm not sure why we're blaming AM General for this issue. AM General did not design the transmission, and I doubt they had much if any input into the manufacturing of said transmission. It was selected based on specific mission criteria; Allison supplied these transmissions from existing production. The MT654 is not unique to the M939 series trucks, or to military applications. It's found in a wide range of on and off-road trucks and buses.

My understanding is that this behaviour is a result of an intended design feature of this (and several others) model Allison transmission. Additionally, it has been my experience that these transmissions perform the same way in every application in which they are found. They lock up early, at the top of second gear just before going into third, and don't unlock untill coming out of the bottom of second into first. If I understand the reasoning and operation correctly, it is to provide positive engine/transmission braking, and also to reduce slippage under acceleration, which also reduces heat generation, increasing transmission durability and longevity. Someone who has a better understanding will correct me if I'm mistaken on any of this.

Seems like if it really was a "design flaw" as some have indicated, the correct solution would have been having Allison address the issue, and let them "break" the functionality, since it's their transmission, and their design feature, and was provided to AM General like that in the first place. How simple (or complex) is it to change the lockup from second gear to fifth gear? Swap out the torque converter and move on, right? Interestingly, that's not what they did, though it might have been cheaper than installing ABS.

The ABS modification provided safer braking controls, which were needed anyway, and maintained the existing transmission functionality. Win-win, I think. And as somebody else mentioned, a bargain at the pricetag given.

 

[clinto]

My current distributor cost for GY G177 11:00R20's is $680 each, without tubes and flaps.