Winch band brake question

[Jake0147]

It seems that my worm brake is getting crazy hot in a very short period of operation... So like any good redneck, I took it all apart... Nothing appears wrong, so then I went to the manual....

According to 9-2320-209-34-2-3 it was not installed correctly before I took it apart. So I put it back like it was. and ran it with the cover off. It produces smoke enough to see from the driver's seat on a slightly windy day, in about thirty seconds, in either direction.

The way it WAS, and IS, is like the picture. There is a spring between the housing and the lower end of the band, and the adjusting bolt threads through the top of the band. This way makes sense to me. (But that is only what it is, obviously...)

In the manual, the spring is said to go between the two ends of the band. Doing so causes engagement in the forward direction to the point of making the same smoke I mentioned before. In the reverse direction, that leads to minimal if any engagement. That seems even worse than what I've got... It also chatters a bit in the forward direction.

I also notice that it appears that I have a (slightly) different style brake than what is in that manual, although all appears to be functionally the same. In addition, the "clock position" of the band brake is different, but that (i believe?) is inconsequential?

The brake disk (I'd call it a drum?) is in good order, the band appers much, much newer than the winch, barely used maybe.

The picture shows how I have it (how it was removed). Any thoughts?

EDIT: Additional info- All test runs were made with the adjuster bolt threaded into the nut to engage all threads, but NO bolt threads protruding from the nut, in other words as loose as it can possibly be.

 

[LanceRobson]

Hello Jake, I'm sorry I'll miss you two at Rausch Creek.

The brake is intended to keep the cable from spooling out when you are winching a load uphill and put in the clutch. It should not be braking when pulling in. The TM states to tighten it one turn at a time if it will not hold the rated load and to loosen it one turn at a time if it heats up.

Don't worry about having all the nut's threads engaged. Tighten it only until it will hold a load on a slope (like another truck) and loosen it if it still heats up.

The is a big screw with a slotted head on the lower outer side of the passenger side housing that adjusts the friction brake on the side of the drum. It works all the time and keeps the cable from "bird-nesting" when you stop pulling it out "free wheeling" with the winch drive disengaged. If you can turn the winch drum with no resistance, or the drum over spools, it needs adjustment.

Good Luck

Lance

 

[Jake0147]

Hello Jake, I'm sorry I'll miss you two at Rausch Creek.

Lance

I am sorry as well, I was looking forward to it but the opportunity left as soon as it arose. If it's not work, it's the truck, and if it's not the truck it's work again... I can't get out of that place for anything. Hopefully there will be a "next year"...

I've got the purpose of the different brakes, but I'm starting to wonder about the need for it in my application. Of course that's easy to when it isn't working right and I wanted to play with my winch today...
What I'm confused about is that it is (or seems to be) WAY too tight at it's loosest possible adjustment.
I have found the spring position in the 9-2320-361-20 which agrees with my placement, but disagrees with the -209 that I first turned to for help. This reference (the -361) also gives a "break in procedure" when a "new winch" is installed. (Since it's a -20 manual, no overhaul is given, only a R&R, so I assume that would inculde a new band. The procecure is to pay out the cable (reverse the winch) at idle for five minutes. Since there is not five minutes worth of cable to pay out I would assume the drum clutch should be out, and because it says to wait one and one half hours for the band brake to cool before further adjustments, I believe this break in is for the band brake..... I think it's telling me to burn the crap out of this band and then re-adjust whatever cinders are left of it??? If that's so, it was never done when this band was installed, because there was no evidence of heat in the friction material, I have not let it run but 30 seconds and that HAS left evidence of heat and blackening, albeit minor.

Can you (or anybody) confirm that I am really supposed to "cook" this thing before use, instead of just burnish it? Waiting 1.5 hours to adjust it seems like a lot, maybe I'm supposed to burn the smoke out of it, and not just "burnish" the surfaces? I'm starting to lean towards this, but I'd like a second opinion since letting that much smoke out all at once just doesn't feel right.

 

[ida34]

You brake wheel looks very rusty. Is the outside surface rusty where the friction band rides? If so I would sand off the rust as it is supposed to be fairly smooth. Not polished but smooth.

Chuck

 

[Jake0147]

The drum is actually very clean and very smooth underneath of the band. I've come up with two possibilities so far.
Option A is that the band simply is too tight because it hasn't been broken in. By it's condition, that's a possibility. This winch has been in my possession for some time, but it has been used only enough to wind the cable onto the drum. That was low gear at low idle, and honestly at that time it didn't occur to me to see if the brake was excessively hot.
Option B is that it worked perfectly at that time, but the band is bent or warped ever so slightly. Brake bands being a self energizing brake (depending on how much of the force is applied at which end) can become excessively "grabby" (too self energizing) or eacessively weak (too self de-energizing) depending on how and where they are out of shape. Danged if I can see anything wrong however I can see where the clean path on the drum is slightly wider than the band, maybe it's kinked a little and reversing the winch (which MAY be the first time for this band) may have shifted it's original position. If it is warped or bent, which I can't actually see that it is...
It's such a simple thing too... I've got to be overlooking something obvious.

 

[jasonjc]

Chould the adjuster bolt be too short? I.E. some one put in one that "looks" right?

 

[Jake0147]

This is my bolt for sure...

5305-00-012-6167 Characteristics Data

MRC Criteria Characteristic THSD THREAD SERIES DESIGNATOR UNF AHYM NOMINAL THREAD DIAMETER 0.375 INCHES CMLP THREAD QUANTITY PER INCH 24 AAJD THREAD CLASS 2A AAJF THREAD DIRECTION RIGHT-HAND AASA THREAD LENGTH 1.000 INCHES MINIMUM AASB FASTENER LENGTH 4.000 INCHES NOMINAL MATT MATERIAL STEEL OVERALL MDCL MATERIAL DOCUMENT AND CLASSIFICATION SAE GR 1 OR 2 ASSN STD SINGLE MATERIAL RESPONSE OVERALL SFTT SURFACE TREATMENT CADMIUM OVERALL AASK HEAD STYLE C1 HEXAGON AASU HEAD HEIGHT 0.234 INCHES NOMINAL AATB WIDTH BETWEEN FLATS 0.562 INCHES NOMINAL ZZZT NONDEFINITIVE SPEC/STD DATA 2 TYPE AND 10P STYLE SR-1 MANUFACTURERS CODE 81348 SR-1 NON-DEFINITIVE GOVERNMENT SPEC/STD REFERENCE FFS86TYPE2STYLE10P




I tried the break in procedure against my better judgement. If the cover had been in place like the manual said I wouldn't have seen much smoke, nor would I have seen the glowing red lining materials... It's gonna take every minute of that hour and a half to cool back down for sure, 45 minutes in and it's still plenty warm That's got to be one tough seal behind that brake drum, man that got hot...

It definately loosened up some. I'm still not convinced it's right, it still feels VERY tight to me in either direction, but with both hands firmly on the driveshaft I am able to get it to turn just a little at a time. That's a step forward. I wish I knew better what it was supposed to work when it is right, it's possible that it's OK at this point, it just still doesn't feel good to me. The brake band (the way I understand how it works) should be much tighter in the reverse direction. There is no such "specification" in any manual however.

 

[spicergear]

Take if off and forget it was on there. This has been debated a time ago...I've taken them off of my winches and never had one unspool under load. Winches that are a little 'loose' or may have been abused have been said to slowly unspool. Think of the dynamics of what's involved: you're attempting to backspin a worm drive with a bull gear. (!?) At a max 10,000 lb load it shoudn't move. I even contacted one of the winch companies back when and they told me that the gears specially engineered in winches to create a certain amount of bind and lock themselves. I use mine a lot and never had one unspool under load.

I had one that went up in smoke like yours and I removed it with no problems, removed a second because I didn't want that to ever creep up on me again and removed a third when I spun it's location and drove it from what would typically be the front side.

 

[Barrman]

Tom beat me to it. Take it off and forget about it. I had already done that to the winch on my Gasser which was rusted solid, but was looking for one when I talked to Tom about it. He convinced me to leave it out. I have and that winch has never moved on its own when pulling itself, other trucks out, buildings down and using the tow bar as an A frame, picking up engines and axles.

Oh, Sam winer in Cleveland had some when I was looking a few years ago. Prices were high and I waited.