Wisconsin allegedly cancelling Military vehicle titles.

[undysworld]

Hello All,

Hey, I second that question: What don't I know?

(Well, lots. But that's beside the point!)

Here's the latest from my desk:

It ain't over yet, but...

Yesterday, I received by mail the proposed decision regarding the cancellation of my title and registration be the WisDOT. It is a ruling in my favor, ie: the cancellation is reversed.

Essentially, the DOT failed to meet the burden of proof that my truck does not meet FMVSS requirements.

Bear in mind that I, and the WisDOT, now have 15 days within which to present our objections and briefs, prior to the administrator of the Department of Administration, Division of Hearings and Appeals making a final decision. Even after that, WisDOT can appeal the ruling to a higher court. Nonetheless, a decidedly positive step, at this stage.

I hope to have a link to the court's entire letter posted to our website within a couple days: http://www.wisconsin-pinzgauers.org/

In an interesting sidelight: my insurance agent called today, to say that Progressive has rejected my policy because my VIN is incorrect. It is consistent with the truck. But according to my agent, Progressive provides their client's VINs to the DOT and (I'm guessing) my VIN is not listed by the DOT as OK. I'll meet with her next Tuesday and deliver copies of the court's letter. Interesting, eh?

I shall carry on, and I'll keep you posted.

Paul

 

[gimpyrobb]

Glad to hear that things might be looking up! Keep up the fight.

 

[emmado22]

An excellent step in the right direction!!

 

[B3.3T]

Congrats on a frustrating and long fight.

 

[FreightTrain]

As for progressive insurance,Call them up and chat with them.I had the same problem with my deece.The Vin was getting kicked out.My agent contacted progressive and they got it all straightened out.They changed computer software so they are having a few issues.They had to fix it on the progressive side and fax him something to get the insurance paperwork to go through.

 

[undysworld]

Hello again,

Here's an update in our struggle.

Briefs in support or opposition to the proposed decision are due today. I dropped mine off yesterday.

I am scheduled to meet Friday morning with my senator, Jon Erpenbach, to discuss legislation.

For anybody who still thinks that this ban is going to be limited to Austrian-built ex-military vehicles: Last week another Pinzgauer owner was contacted by a WI citizen (John) who just tried to register his 1971 deuce & 1/2 (M35A2) and was turned down.

He talked to Linda Lewis (WisDOT chief of vehicle records). She said that because his vehicle did not have a FMVSS sticker, the state of WI would not register it. But, if it was 1968 or older, it would be 'grandfathered' in and OK to register.

Don't forget that last August WisDOT refused registration of a 1943 Jeep, under the same statute they used to take our titles and license plates away. The secretary of WisDOT, Frank Busalacchi, wrote a letter defending that action. That Jeep was built a quarter century before the FMVSS laws even took effect!!

If anybody is interested in contacting these owners, let me know. I've got both phone numbers. Call these guys yourself and ask about it.

This is what NHTSA has to say about ex-military vehicles in a letter of interpretation:

"However, NHTSA excuses vehicles from compliance with the FMVSS if they have been manufactured in accordance with contractual specifications of the armed forc es of the United States (49 CFR 571.7(a)). Furthermore, because the Safety Act does not regulate sales of vehicles to owners subsequent to the original one, the U.S. armed forces may sell military vehicles to the public at the end of their useful milita ry life without having to bring them into conformity with the FMVSS (however, because of safety policy considerations they have not done so with respect to M-151 jeeps and HMMV vehicles)." Read it yourself: http://isearch.nhtsa.gov/gm/94/nht94-1.78.html

Basically, NHTSA exempts surplus military vehicles from FMVSS requirements when resold to the public. FMVSS do not apply to off-road vehicles, so there would be no reason to exempt the vehicles. The fact that NHTSA exempted the vehicles shows that NHTSA expects and intends these ex-military vehicles to be licensed for on-road use.

Why doesn't MVPA do anything about this?

Why don't the Wisconsin collector groups care?

I guess you think it's someone else's problem. I'm afraid that in a year, I'll be sitting around saying, "I told you so".

I hate to be a prick, but if the court gives me my title/plates back for my Pinzgauer, I'm about done with this fight. If you guys who own US ex-military vehicles want to sit back and allow WisDOT to restrict your operating rights, it's certainly your right to do so.

Paul

 

[emmado22]

Why doesn't MVPA do anything about this?

I agree, where are they? Has anyone had any contact with them regarding the issue?

 

[undysworld]

I wrote to MVPA, and I'm a member! I wrote to the Wisconsin Car Club Alliance.

Tom Landmann wrote to MVPA.

Dave Arndt wrote to MVPA. Dave wrote to the Military Vehicles Magazine in Iola, WI.

So far, we've had NO replies.

DOT wants us (Pinzgauer owners) to be viewed as "crazy". DOT is counting on establishing a precedent of refusing registration for ex-mil vehicles, because there are only 8 owners in the state. We're too few to matter, in DOT's opinion. But once DOT establishes a precedent, state law allows them to enforce the policy just as if our elected officials had passed a new law (Schoolways v. DMV 1975).

DOT just introduced rulemaking to that effect on June 1: http://www.legis.state.wi.us/rsb/code/register/reg629b.pdf

Once they get it passed, they wil have legal authority to cancel the existing registration and license plates for ALL ex-military vehicles!

They do not have this authority yet, and now is the time you can make your opinions known.

It's up to you guys.

 

[Boatcarpenter]

Has anyone looked into Pinz owners/military vehicles owners records to see how many traffic violations/accidents are recorded in said vehicles? I would venture to guess that they are a very safe group to have on the roads in Wisc. I would think they have a very low percentage of infractions per vehicle compared to most other groups. Might be a way to point out that MV owners are not a group to worry about in terms of highway safety as this effort seems to be concerned with.

BC

 

[Michael]

(John) who just tried to register his 1971 deuce & 1/2 (M35A2) and was turned down.

He talked to Linda Lewis (WisDOT chief of vehicle records). She said that because his vehicle did not have a FMVSS sticker, the state of WI would not register it. But, if it was 1968 or older, it would be 'grandfathered' in and OK to register.

This had crossed my mind as a possibility, but I thought trucks over 1 ton were exempt from the first round of safety law.

 

[undysworld]

Hi BC,

We've requested such info from DOT. They have not provided any info. I don't think there is such a record.

I'm in contact with (to my knowledge) every Pinzgauer owner in Wisconsin. Not a single individual has had so much as a parking ticket, much less an accident.

I drive (drove) my Pinzgauer about as much as anyone here, and I averaged less than 1000 miles per year. Many trucks see far less. One owner has had his truck apart for over 6 years, his rebuild having been interrupted by fatherhood.

As with any antique, expensive vehicle, they are driven cautiously and rarely.

Rational consideration of this matter is apparently beyond the capacity of the Wisconsin DMV.

Michael,

All I can tell you is what I'm told or see. I've got copies of Busalacchi's letter defending the refusal on the 1943 Jeep. I spoke to Dave Arndt, who spoke with John. DMV is apparently targeting all ex-mil vehicles, judging by these two guys.

What is this "first round of safety law" you refer to? It's new to me. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Paul

To All,

A recent conversation with another HMV owner leads me to believe that DMV's chief of vehicle records, Linda Lewis, may be at the root of this BS. More if/as it becomes available.

Paul

 

[Michael]

I was thinking about all that crap the federal government started passing around 67- 68 for cars. I don't remember any specific laws, I just remember that for almost all of it, trucks over a certain GVW were exempt or didn't have to comply until several years later. I was thinking that was when the sticker under the hood was started. I am lumping emission control in as well.

 

[breslin]

What was the reason for th edenial of the M35a2. I am planning on going to register my M35A2 next week. I am going to register it as a 20,000 lbs truck. i would like to know why they are refusing? i can understand it if the person wanted historical plates because of the wieght limit. Any infomation would be helpful

sean

 

[undysworld]

Michael,

The Highway Safety Act of 1966 decreed that we needed to 'do something' to make the highways safer. The first Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS or NMVSS) took effect in March of 1967, IIRC, but most of them took effect Jan. 1, 1968. Historically, and typically, any motor vehicle built before '68 is considered exempted from any FMVSS requirements. It used to be that way in Wisconsin too. FMVSS set standards for equipment built in any particular year, getting more strict as the years went by. The standards for trucks have always been looser than those for passenger cars, but they all must comply.

Except for ONE exemption: if a vehicle is imported over 25-yrs old, it is federally exempted from FMVSS reqirements. That's the irony, our Pinzgauers were all imported that old and are supposed to be exempted!!

Sean,

Here's a quote from John's email: "she told me because my 1971 M35A2 did not have a safety compliance data tag or sticker on it the state will not register it in Wisconsin."

Here's a quote from Paul Nilsen, WisDOT Asst. Gen. Counsel, from his closing brief in my appeal: "Mr. Underwood is wrong to suggest that DMV changed policy in 2006 to prohibit registration of military vehicles. DMV employees testified that DMV has held that position since at least the mid-1980s and was considered longstanding policy even then."

Here's a maybe short term fix: Don't tell them, or admit to them, that the truck was ex-military, and paint it yellow or some candy-a$$ color so DMV is fooled (I don't think that fooling them is too hard).

Here's a better long term fix: Mail the paperwork in, along with a note stating that it's ex-military, blah, blah. They'll have to mail you a letter denying registration/title since it's ex-military. Then you, and I, and the other 1600 or more ex-military vehicle owners in Wisconsin descend on the Capitol. There's another 10,000 current- and ex-military service-people who also will not take kindly to the enormous slap in the face that it is for Wisconsin, alone among US states, to ban ex-military vehicles. Let's stir things up and get this b.s. policy tossed out, along with the DOT people pushing it!

Thanks for your service, folks. Now get rid of those scary green trucks. They scare me and make me spill quiche all over my nice Volvo with the cartop bike rack on it.

Sean, feel free to call if you'd like to chat.

Paul
(The one who drives the scary green truck that looks like Nazis rode in it.)

 

[Michael]

(John) who just tried to register his 1971 deuce & 1/2 (M35A2) and was turned down.

He talked to Linda Lewis (WisDOT chief of vehicle records). She said that because his vehicle did not have a FMVSS sticker, the state of WI would not register it. But, if it was 1968 or older, it would be 'grandfathered' in and OK to register.

This had crossed my mind as a possibility, but I thought trucks over 1 ton were exempt from the first round of safety law.

To clarify this post, I have been thinking that HMVs produced before 1968 were on safer ground than those produced after. I don't see how any state can do anything to the older HMVs without banning all antique cars and trucks since there were no laws on the books before then and they would have to grandfather all or nothing or at least have specific language in the law to single out MVs, which to my knowledge is not there. Now I know that WI has already done just that in this case. I just don't see how they are justifying it.

It was my understanding that heavy trucks were exempt from the first few rounds of safety laws but I do not know if they had to have a sticker saying they were exempt. It seems stupid they would deny a title to a truck just because it doesn't have a sticker saying it is exempt from the law, but that hasn't stopped government before.

It would be interesting to see what a 1971 16000 GVW civi truck has under the hood for a sticker.

 

[undysworld]

There was another brief update in Madison's local newspaper, Isthmus: http://www.thedailypage.com/isthmus/article.php?article=23669

A local owner was advised today that the final decision in my hearing should be made this week. I'll post it when I get it.

Paul

 

[Michael]

WisDOT attorney Paul Nilsen will file objections to the ruling, but doubts it will be overturned. He says the agency will likely restore the titles of Pinzgauer owners and issue apologies. Then it may ask state legislators to change the law, lest the state be unable to prevent "tanks on our roads."

"Tanks on the roads", what has this guy been smoking?

 

[undysworld]

Interestingly, I think he's smoking nothing. It seems to be a curious combination of 'cover your ass' and a deep-rooted dislike of ex-military vehicles at our DMV.

Based on numerous discussions I've had with fellow Wisconsin Pinzgauer owners, I have been led to believe that the initial cancellation was instigated by the WisDOT Chief of Vehicle Records, Linda Lewis. DMV cancelled our registration/license plates in September 2007, but in May 2008 DMV introduced formal rulemaking to provide "legislative authority" for such an action. They had acted without any such legal authority.

Since the first letter from DMV which cancelled our titles and license plates, DMV's excuse has evolved. It has changed EVERY time they put something in writing: From day 1, they've listed 'ex-military' as part of their reasoning. During the hearing, Department employees testified repeatedly that DMV has NEVER knowingly registered ex-military vehicles. But in the DOT's 9-page Brief Objecting to the Proposed Decision, they do not even mention the word "military".

I think they acted first, and have tried since then to cover their asses. Their attorney, of course, doesn't want to lose. So he resorts to all kinds of obtuse comments like the "tank" comment in the article.

I'm reminded of the saying: It's better to let the world think that you're a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Paul

 

[undysworld]

As you are aware, I appealed the WisDOT/DMV's cancellation of my Title and Registration for my Pinzgauer, Case No. TR-08-0027.

A final decision was reached in the case yesterday. Judge David Schwarz upheld the proposed decision, and ruled that "For the reasons set forth above, the Department's order canceling the Wisconsin title and registration of the Pinzgauer owned by Paul Underwood is reversed.".

Now, we need to work together to create legislation which clarifies the ambiguities in our State Statutes that caused this problem in the first place. The interpretation which DMV applied in canceling my operating rights also threatens every antique, home-built, and ex-military vehicle. Certain vehicles are simply exempted from Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards by federal regulation (ie: pre-'68, ex-military, and over-25-yr.old imports), and WisDOT/DMV policy must be directed to acknowledge this exemption.

I do not know if this is the end, and if DMV will now re-issue Title and Registration for the Pinzgauers in Wisconsin. They have options for appealing the decision, within 30 days. It's now been one week shy of a full year that I have been unable to legally operate my Pinzgauer. I hope reason prevails, and that I can return it to the road. I'll keep you informed.

I'm a bit keyed-up here at the moment, but if anyone has questions or wishes access to the court documents, please let me know. It's my wife's birthday today, and I expect we'll be out this afternoon and evening.

Thanks again for all your support.

Paul Underwood

 

[gimpyrobb]

Glad this turn out in your favor. PM headed your way.