Wisconsin DOT bill proposal

[lacoda56]

Unfortunately, I have lived in this poor excuse for a state for fifty some odd years, and this sort of thing is expected! I don't know if it has anything to do with the current anti MV dmv attitude but a few years back, I went to the dmv to title my newly purchased M54a2 only to be told the sf97 didn't mean anything to "them" and all military vehicles were built out of a bunch of unrelated parts, (Ii'm not kidding, this is an actual quote) and shouldn't be titled or allowed on "our" roads. The old bat then proceeded to tell me that I wasn't getting anything from them, and I should leave. I just have a feeling that this old weasel has worked her way up to a position where she can force her anti MV attitude to a level where it can do the most harm. I seriously hope I'm wrong, but nothing surprises me anymore.

 

[waayfast]

In this miserable economy, I could no way justify ownership and enjoyment of my M35 gasser just being able to use it for events and parades--I HAVE to make it"pay it's way" by normal everyday usage--drive to work,then go get lumber--haul tractors and stuff for the place, ETC.If my state passed a law like you in WI are looking at-that would be it-I'd have to quit the hobby. But that is EXACTLY the purpose of this bill, isn't it??!!
Please pull out all the stops and kill this monstrosity in your State so my state don't get no duma$$ Ideas.

 

[lacoda56]

That's the problem, it can spead like cancer! Someone once said, "You can run but you can"t hide!" They're right!

 

[Barney-the-Duece]

chgofiveo - you could either do the weighted plate, which I believe is an "H" plate for a Duece or you can get an antique plate (you might also check with the DMV to see if you can get the lower weight rating although that would limit your max weight you can haul to 3000 - no sure on this option but may be worth a try to ask). You can also get a "mileage tax" plate which sets a total annual limit for mileage but they cannot be driven out of state or of course farm plates if you own a farm.

Thanks Boomer - I thought the pic give another meaning to seeing eye dog!

I do hope this gets defeated or at the very least revised. From the posts here, there seems to be numerous unanswered questions and I bet more will come up. Just as with any new laws lately someone is pushing this quickley without full thought or reasons why. As was also mentioned, were there numerous accidents or incidents with MVs which is driving this? I of course could not answer that but you would think with the media the way it is, if there were incidents involving MVs they would most certainly have been on the news. Again, this appears to be driven by one or a few individuals with some sort of dislike or axe to grind agains MVs.

 

[chgofiveo]

chgofiveo - you could either do the weighted plate, which I believe is an "H" plate for a Duece or you can get an antique plate (you might also check with the DMV to see if you can get the lower weight rating although that would limit your max weight you can haul to 3000 - no sure on this option but may be worth a try to ask). You can also get a "mileage tax" plate which sets a total annual limit for mileage but they cannot be driven out of state or of course farm plates if you own a farm.

Thanks Boomer - I thought the pic give another meaning to seeing eye dog!

I do hope this gets defeated or at the very least revised. From the posts here, there seems to be numerous unanswered questions and I bet more will come up. Just as with any new laws lately someone is pushing this quickley without full thought or reasons why. As was also mentioned, were there numerous accidents or incidents with MVs which is driving this? I of course could not answer that but you would think with the media the way it is, if there were incidents involving MVs they would most certainly have been on the news. Again, this appears to be driven by one or a few individuals with some sort of dislike or axe to grind agains MVs.

Im not sure if you know this, but AV plates are only good on vehicles less that 8000 lbs...If you go to the AV plate section and scroll to the end, you will see it

Antique Vehicle license plates are multi-year and may be displayed on passenger vehicles, trucks and vans weighing 8,000 pounds or less, sport utility vehicles and motorcycles

All M35s are over 8000 lbs

 

[boomer]

Hey Boomer...
I just went to OUR DMV (Seceretary of State) and found they dont even have a plate for us...We would have to get regular truck plates and pay by the weight of the truck and have to follow all commercial truck laws and regulations (Which would be quite expensive)

Boomer, is this true or am I missing something...

Message sent

 

[CatMan]

Wisconsin HMV Bill Proposal

Well, I am the rotten SOB that has had to father this "Steaming Pile of Crap"

But there is a whole lot more to the story and I will keep to a few facts and set the the ranting aside.

Several of us here in Wisconsin have spent the last two years trying to keep the DOT from outlawing the use of Historic Military Vehicles from Wisconsin Highways. The DOT holds that these vehicles are "Non Conforming" with the National Highway Transportation Safety Act (NHTSA) of 1966. And they are correct. They have the law on their side. And the issue is one of public safety.

The State of Wisconsin has done a horrible job of not following their own laws and have been very inconsistant in the registration of former military vehicles.
With the huge increase in the use of all sorts of Go Carts, Hot Rod Golf Carts, Imported Japanese Mini Trucks, European race Cars and yes motorized bar stools, the state has determined to enforce the existing laws and keep these non standard vehicles off the highway. Former military vehicles fall in the same pile.

If we do not work thru the legislature to create an exemption for our HMV's the DOT will have us at "no use" at all on public roads. The DOT had proposed an administrative rule Trans 123 earlier this year that was pulled up short thanks to everyone that packed the public meeting room. But it is still active. We are trying to legislate our vehicles out of that rule making, with the creation of a bill. When we do that, it takes presedence and all HMV's come under the Bill not just post 1968 vehicles as in the Administrative rule (I am not a lawyer)

We have met with the DOT and our legislators many times and have come out with the best we can. I have HMV's too and would love to have unrestricted use but the only way the DOT will stand still, is with restricted use. After a couple of years we will have a data base that will demonstrate the safety record and we can lobby for expanded recreational use which is what the Old Car guys have done on the East coast.

Other states have similar HMV laws and there will be more. I would encourage you all to join your local MVPA affiliate club or Car Club and become more organized and to lobby your own states for protection of historic Vehicles before it is too late. Get out ahead, because playing defense is an uphill battle.

There are some good features in this bill. The draft of the bill will be out in a couple more days. No, we are not happy about the restrictions in use but the alternatives are worse. It will allow any former US vehicle to be registered, it will be inexpensive, it will provide protection for the historic vehicle preservation hobby, and it will be easier to complete the transaction with the DOT in the future.

Everyone is free to lobby their legislators for a better solution, I and my fellows here have worked this very hard for months and months. We did our best.

Not supporting the Wisconsin legislation is a sure ticket to parking your MV in the yard. Please consider all the features of the bill, look at the alternatives and call your Wisconsin legislators and tell them we need their help.

Thanks

Jeff R
aka Cat Man

 

[Barney-the-Duece]

chgofiveo - PM sent

 

[hndrsonj]

CatMan,
First i'll go against the crowd and say thanks. I've been following all this from the beginning. I was a WI resident when I joined the Navy 19 years ago and it's pretty likely i'll be back there in a few more. I know all post 68 MV's were almost off the road completely just a few months ago. My only question is: Is there any way to have unrestricted use for the vehicles that are pre 1968 since they did not fall under the NHTSA added into the bill?

 

[CatMan]

Wisconsin HMV Bill Proposal

The issue of pre 1968 MV's not being addressed by the Federal regulations is a question we are discussing with attorneys and the DOT at this time.

Your question is a valid one. We asked the same thing.

It is easy to get down to discussions of individual vehicles such as how is a 1947 Civilian Willys CJ2A different than a 1945 Military Willys MB? Paint? But much more difficult to stay on the big picture.

The DOT also knows that there is WWII wheeled armor like the Ford M20 and White scout cars that with there weight and poor visability do not have a place on the modern highway licenced as an unrestricted daily driver.

We are not finished and there is much to do. And will continue to do in the future. We must get some MV specific protection written into Wisconsin Law as a first step.

Cat Man

 

[saddamsnightmare]

October 29th, 2009.

Good luck CatMan and Co:

I have been watching the MVPA on this one, and I believe that they have leaned too much toward historic vehicle use restrictions on these vehicles. What one needs to do is force the Feds to permit an exemption as they were designed to Federal specifications, and thus make the Wisconsin DOT conform to Federal law. VERY few trucks built in 1971 had what we would call conformance to the FHSA regulations.... We had a series of White Construcktor dump trucks, slightly larger and heaver then the 5 tons, that had virtually no
safety devices incorporated when new, and they were grandfathered. The deuce is a 1948
design, and as such is virtually identical to her like civillian sisters of the period, it matters not the year on the data plate, the design is unmodified 1948.
They are no more or no less a threat on the highway then any pre 1985 heavy truck when used with common sense. Worse comes to worse, buy an acre of land in Texas and register the truck here, you'll get treated better, and then form a leasing company to lease it to you for a dollar a year. That should stick Wisconsin regs right where they belong, as their laws have no application to vehicles registered out of state. Notice that most large trucking company and railroad company trucks are registered in a state where laws are more favorable, then leased to the trucking or railroad company.
If the MVPA is not willing to fight for those of use who do use our trucks daily as working vehicles (mine's registered as a 5 ton pickup), there will be little reason to preserve and protect them, neither is there any reason for us to work with the MVPA as they are a narrow, limited group organization.
Personally, I never expected Massachusetts or California mindsets to work in Wisconsin, but apparently the fruitcakes have filtered into Madison.


Just my .02 worth,

Good Luck,

Cheers,

Kyle F. McGrogan

N.B. They should also force their regulations on currently operating state and Federal military vehicles, otherwise what they are doing constitutes what is known in the law as "Unlawfull Taking", that is where a government so restructs your use of land or property as to constitute taking without payment. When that hits the Federal Courts, I want to see how many $40,000.00 deuces the state is gonna be paying for?

 

[Monty]

Somebody in WI DMV really has it in for MV's. They tried to cancel titles on Pinzgauer's. They got beat in a hearing and backed down. Now it appears they are trying to legislate around it. I had a feeliing when that was going on it was a matter of time before they went after all MV's. Good question as to why they are pushing this agenda. Even applies to motorcycles?!

Add WI to the list of states I would never live in.

I to would like to add WI as a state that I'll never live in
but I've been here all my life it just seems to be getting worse.
And yes the idiots have come to roost in Madison, we just need to vote them out ASAP.

 

[Monty]

October 29th, 2009.

Good luck CatMan and Co:

I have been watching the MVPA on this one, and I believe that they have leaned too much toward historic vehicle use restrictions on these vehicles. What one needs to do is force the Feds to permit an exemption as they were designed to Federal specifications, and thus make the Wisconsin DOT conform to Federal law. VERY few trucks built in 1971 had what we would call conformance to the FHSA regulations.... We had a series of White Construcktor dump trucks, slightly larger and heaver then the 5 tons, that had virtually no
safety devices incorporated when new, and they were grandfathered. The deuce is a 1948
design, and as such is virtually identical to her like civillian sisters of the period, it matters not the year on the data plate, the design is unmodified 1948.
They are no more or no less a threat on the highway then any pre 1985 heavy truck when used with common sense. Worse comes to worse, buy an acre of land in Texas and register the truck here, you'll get treated better, and then form a leasing company to lease it to you for a dollar a year. That should stick Wisconsin regs right where they belong, as their laws have no application to vehicles registered out of state. Notice that most large trucking company and railroad company trucks are registered in a state where laws are more favorable, then leased to the trucking or railroad company.
If the MVPA is not willing to fight for those of use who do use our trucks daily as working vehicles (mine's registered as a 5 ton pickup), there will be little reason to preserve and protect them, neither is there any reason for us to work with the MVPA as they are a narrow, limited group organization.
Personally, I never expected Massachusetts or California mindsets to work in Wisconsin, but apparently the fruitcakes have filtered into Madison.


Just my .02 worth,

Good Luck,

Cheers,

Kyle F. McGrogan

N.B. They should also force their regulations on currently operating state and Federal military vehicles, otherwise what they are doing constitutes what is known in the law as "Unlawfull Taking", that is where a government so restructs your use of land or property as to constitute taking without payment. When that hits the Federal Courts, I want to see how many $40,000.00 deuces the state is gonna be paying for?

You have very valid points, now do you have that one acre for sale?

Chad

 

[qbubba51]

I just bought my first Deuce, now I will not be able to use it when I want. I can deal with the no use in Jan. But I did not buy this to sit in my driveway or storage. Would like yto find out more if truck has plates from another state does the law apply?

I guess this happens when clowns run the government.

 

[Michael]

Everyone is free to lobby their legislators for a better solution, I and my fellows here have worked this very hard for months and months. We did our best.

Not supporting the Wisconsin legislation is a sure ticket to parking your MV in the yard. Please consider all the features of the bill, look at the alternatives and call your Wisconsin legislators and tell them we need their help.

Thanks

Jeff R
aka Cat Man

Only if it is newer than 1968. Really, the way I read it, you are asking a lot of people to give up most of their rights just so a few people can get very limited rights. If this is the best you can get maybe you should table it until people get their trucks parked and you get more support?

 

[98hd]

So who drafted the proposed bill? Was it done in conjunction w/ the DOT? If so why not go over their heads with it?

You would think we could find a sympathetic, patriotic legislator to introduce a bill that we like!

I'm not trying to criticize, I'm just curious.

Edit:

You'd think a company like Oshkosh Equipment or some of the other dealers, would have some companies for clients that use their HMV's for business. Perhaps one big enough, that when they learn their equipment may be outlawed on the road, they would have some pull with someone in the gov't.

 

[CatMan]

WI HMV issue

The bill draft is the result of lots and lots of meetings with the legislature (both parties) MV collectors, the DOT, Attorneys, The MVPA board of Directors, and consultation with people in other states like Kansas and Ohio who have been thru the process and already have similar laws in place to protect the hobby.

"going over their heads" sounds easy but it isn't.

You would think that retail sellers like Oshkosh Equipment and the people a Federal Property would be all over this. They have not shown 5 minutes of interest.

I've owned and driven MV's for over 30 years. I'm not a new guy. The point everyone seems to be missing here on SS, is the MV market is much much larger than M35's and 5 Tons. They are cheap and propular right now, but the safety concerns of the state are founded in some truth.

Those advocating for unrestricted use of former MV's don't realize you are advocating for the unrestricted use of ANY wheeled military vehicle. And that includes armor. From the simple questions I read that start "I just bought a cheap Deuce" and "I can't get the brakes to work but I drove it home anyway" it is only a matter of time until there is an accident with injurys or worse and the media will have a field day.

We have fought hard for two years and I don't think we have caved in. Not when you look at the big picture.

The Bill LRB3284 went to the legislature for co sponsors yesterday afternoon. For those of you than want to drive your trucks in WI I hope you call your legislators and senators. If you don't support it, please take up the issue with your legislators. I hope you find a better solution.

Don't quite now.

Cat Man

 

[Electrons]

It sounds like a gamble to me. If I'm reading your argument right, you are banking on the chance to pursue less restrictive regulations in the future. That sounds like risky business to me, but then again, I live in a state where all forms of alcohol are banned in more than a handful of counties. I kind of have a bias against letting people make laws now in hopes of getting better laws later.


A little bit of a tangent, but how would one go about trying to ensure something like this not happening in their home state? A law like this could hurt a lot of small MS businesses as many farmers, loggers, rock/gravel haulers, construction and heavy equipment renters use military vehicles. Heck, that burma jeep I posted pictures of months ago was what one man used to start his gravel company that is now worth several million.

A bill like this could hurt small town America. Or at least it would for my area of the country.

 

[No.2Diesel]

Hi,

I agree with Electrons in that the rights of citizens have already been negotiated into thin air with this proposed bill. No one can demonstrate/illustrate to them the difference between an M818 and a engine driven bar stool?!? I'm shocked at that the origin of this BS comes from a Midwest/Heartland/Manufacturing locale. Someone must really have a bug up their a$$.

The safety issue brought up is a huge piece of shiite. Brakes work or they don't work. If they don't, the person behind the wheel is at fault, not the truck. Plenty of pre war cars/trucks drive around with very antiquated brake systems etc. and they are not banned or proposed to be. The safety issue is too vague and cannot be applied fairly to all motorvehicles of all ages. Its like trying to prove a negative....

Has the Wisc. DMV produced any amount of data to back their safety issue crap....?

Who cares if you wanna drive "armor" or "rubber tracked vehicles" on the road? You should be able to whenever you feel like it. Whats so unsafe about that? I hope this cancer does not spread.

I do respect all the work the Wisonsonians are doing.....keep fighting.

 

[davesgmc]

i already caused enough of a stir in kansas witht he ferret. i should keep my comments down i guess