WMO users in Ohio?

[JonMolander]

I use 3/4" camlocks on my portable fillrite pump. But 2" on my IBC tote since it has a big drain on it and I picked up a 2" fuel hose for free. Adapters are cheap. This "hobby" depends more on adapting what you have than designing from scratch. Personally, I would wait til the end for fittings. See what centrifuge, pump, and skid mount we can get our hands on first.

 

[John S-B]

I use 3/4" camlocks on my portable fillrite pump. But 2" on my IBC tote since it has a big drain on it and I picked up a 2" fuel hose for free. Adapters are cheap. This "hobby" depends more on adapting what you have than designing from scratch. Personally, I would wait til the end for fittings. See what centrifuge, pump, and skid mount we can get our hands on first.

Fittings would probably fairly easy, as you can always make adapters to fit whatever set up you already have, and for not much money.

 

[John S-B]

Westcott, you say time is the best method to filter, but yet you're still running your WMO through filters. I get your point, and I'd like to say I'd take the best of both worlds. I have about 150 gallons of WMO that's been sitting for around a year. I just don't have the truck road worthy so I don't have much need to process it yet. I plan to let the bottom couple of inches sit, and use the rest.
The whole point of this is, if an arrangement could be worked out among enough participants, the cost of filtering wouldn't be that much. I'm a novice here, but I do believe that running WMO through a centrifuge is the gold standard. If you had to buy WMO, I'm sure you'd want it as clean as possible.
As for the magnet, the way I do it is I have a 100 micron pan filter that I have sitting in a large metal funnel, and I have a doughnut shaped magnet about 3" in dia. that sits in the bottom that all the oil flows over as it passes through the funnel. That way I know every drop of oil will pass within 1/4" of this magnet.

 

[JonMolander]

if an arrangement could be worked out among enough participants, the cost of filtering wouldn't be that much. I'm a novice here, but I do believe that running WMO through a centrifuge is the gold standard.

Don't get discouraged yet. I really like the idea. I have a hundred things going on at once right now, but I'm willing and able to help you with this.

Maybe we could do a little more parts research and shoot for a build meetup in March/April?

 

[gimpyrobb]

Maybe we could do a little more parts research and shoot for a build meetup in March/April?

At the worst, we could meet up and talk it over at Findlay in May. I have a pneumatic pump hooked to fliters we can use worst case scenario.

 

[Beyond Biodiesel]

I don't say much this these days, as some of you that are reading this know, but............when it comes to this topic and what people say for what they want I just have to scratch my head.

Time is the best method to filter WMO, or in my case any oil. I don't care if it's gear, ATF, etc.

Here is what I do, and have done for countless years. All the trucks in the quarry, and the haul trucks on the road running between the quarry and the staging yard run 100% "whatever oil" during the warm months. During early spring and going into fall they get thinned to 50/50...."whatever oil"/diesel. This is, of course, the multifuels. The Cummins never get more than 25% regardless of the time of year.

I dump everything into pallet tanks. You guys call them IBCs or totes. You set the tank down so that the drain valve is higher than the opposite side. Say two inches or so. On the opposite side of the valve at the bottom you put some magnets. Doesn't matter if they are from some old speakers or what they are. Just big enough to have some pull. You keep filling that tank until it is full. Then start filling the next one, etc. After that first one has sat with no agitation for a month or two you open the valve so that it slowly drains. I sit mine up on a rack when full and then sit an empty one in front of it when I go to drain. I let it drain for about a day until it's empty, just to give you an idea of the flow rate. When empty you will see a lot of crap sitting in the tank. Flush it out when you are ready to use it again.
I then take the tank I just filled from the first and drain it into one of my steel storage tanks. When I do this it get's filter through three filters in series starting at 50 micron, then 20, finally 10 pushed by a Redline pump. There you have it thousands of gallons of "whatever oil" each year. My actual time is little because I can walk away from it and let it do its thing. Come back to it the next day and move a few things around and leave it again.
I haven't done the books on 2015's production yet. However, for 2014 I went through 3,200 gallons of "oil" with a cost of $82 worth of filters. IMHO that's cheap. And FWIW none of the filters on the trucks were changed anymore than standard servicing dictates.
You guys can do what you want, but I just don't understand why everyone thinks they have to run it through a centrifuge.
Then again, I don't say much these days. Maybe it's better that way. Can I get a men.

This is a pretty good description of a successful waste oil processing method. However, I would add a few differences in my system:
1] I found no matter how long I leave WMO sitting around, if it is not thinned with a solvent, like diesel fuel, then the particulate will never settle out.
2] Regardless of whatever method I process my WMO with, I always want to filter it. After 9 years of running waste oils on a 6.2l diesel engine, I found filters at: 250microns, 100micron, then 1 micron, work best for me, and I definitely depend upon long settling periods as a pre-process.
3] When it comes to WMO, I always run it through a centrifuge after at least a month of settling, then I run it through the above filter manifold. And, doing so, I still find enough ultra-fine particles in the centrifuge bowl to justify doing so.

After dismantling 6 dead DB2 IPs I found every one of them had ultra-fine particles embedded into the hydraulic head, which might have been the cause for those failures.

 

[John S-B]

At the worst, we could meet up and talk it over at Findlay in May. I have a pneumatic pump hooked to fliters we can use worst case scenario.

That sounds like a good idea Gimp. When is Findlay BTW? I have a kid graduating so I have to plan things ahead this year. If anyone is interested in this, please PM me or reply.
What I'd be aiming for is no more than $200 investment per person, a commercially made unit for reliability (not that guys here couldn't make one, I'm just concerned about liability), a system to assign times to use it, and a agreed upon set of rules for use and repairs or maintenance. This is just off the top of my head, so I might be leaving something out. I guess there should also be a process for people to buy in or out as people leave or enter the group, because life happens.
I'd be glad to hear any suggestions, and if anyone knows of any similar type of co-op arrangement agreements that could be used as a model that would be great too.

 

[JonMolander]

I'd be glad to hear any suggestions, and if anyone knows of any similar type of co-op arrangement agreements that could be used as a model that would be great too.

I would vote for joint ownership. Divide the cost among however many want to join. What is on my mind though is since I'm active duty military, I have 14 months left on station then I'm moving elsewhere. I'd want to sell my portion to the next guy or back to the crowd. Or if it's something like $100/person, I'd just filter a few hundred gallons before I left and take the hit.


I've seen a few suppliers. Did you have a particular one in mind? Most places will customize a kit for us. But I think we could just purchase the centrifuge and pump and do the rest ourselves.

I'll do some CAD work on SketchUp to help everyone visualize what I had in mind, then we can go from there.

 

[John S-B]

OK, so here's what I've been looking at;
http://utahbiodieselsupply.com/centrifugewvo.php
If we would get the extreme package with the inline heater and power cone the cost would be around $2,000. You can get it in 120 or 240v, but I'm thinking we'd opt for 120v since not everyone would have 240v available. I like the fact that it's very compact and would be very easy to transport and set up. There may be a few incidentals like fittings and a socket wrench to take out the bowl. Here are some of the "rules" I'm thinking of.
If we had twelve guys that would give each person a month to have use of it. And it wouldn't necessarily have to be just Ohio users, guys in bordering states that aren't too far probably wouldn't be a problem.
We could arrange turns so that it goes to the next closest person, so people don't have to travel too far.
Only those that buy in would be allowed to use it, although a user could process oil for someone as long as they are the ones to do it and they don't lend it out to their "buddy".
Persons who buy in would be responsible for damage occurring while in their possession, although if something breaks or is worn in normal use, all would contribute.
No modifications would be allowed to the unit.
Additional fittings would be put on for connecting to, so that the original fittings do not receive wear and tear.
A transport box would be used to protect the unit while in transit, and to keep instructions and any tools or spare parts together.
The unit must be operated according to the manufacturer's instructions.
The electrical system used to operate the system must be functioning properly.
Allotted times may be traded between users, but if other users have times between the users, their allotted times must be honored.
Users should try to meet halfway when passing the unit to the next person, but it's the current user's responsibility to make sure that the next user receives the unit within a day or two of their scheduled time. If the next user is out of town or otherwise unavailable, they should notify the current holder of the unit of the situation. Being unavailable does not generally entitle a user to an extension of their allotted time.
Modifications or extensions of allotted times between two concurrent users is permitted if both are in agreement, ie, user one may have it for 6 weeks if user two only needs it for two weeks. (assuming one month is the normal allotted time) User three would still get it at the beginning of the third month.
Users would be responsible to report any damage or unusual wear.
Users would be responsible for making sure the unit is fully cleaned inside and out before transfer.
A notification should be sent to all parties when a unit is transferred, damaged, or any pertinent information so that all know the status of the unit.

Well, that's what I've got so far. Anything else any of you can think of??
Let me know if any of you are SERIOUSLY interested. (but it's not a commitment yet)

Thanks, John S-B

 

[Beyond Biodiesel]

It looks like a good product, but I would caution against using the heater with any gasoline-based waste oil blends. The heater would not be needed any way in that case. let us all know how it works out for you.

 

[JonMolander]

$500 extra for a variable freq drive? Do you think there would be a significant difference in clean oil quality between the basic and extreme models? I mean the extreme has double the speed, but maybe 3450rpm is good enough. That would drop the price down to $1500. Also, their website claims their variable frequency drive may not work with GFCI outlets, which is all I have in my garage. That seems fishy...I have limited experience with VFDs, but I've never heard of this happening. And my final question is about the heater. While I agree hot oil is easier to treat, how hot will the oil actually get in that inline heater? It says the thermostat goes up to 250F, but how hot do we need it and will the oil even be in the heater long enough to rise that much? The site claims they easily held 150F at 1qt/min flowrate. I could pull my heat transfer book off the shelf and confirm this. Nerd alert!

These are just my thoughts. I don't mean to make it sound like I'm shutting you down. I'm an engineer...I overthink everything.

By the way, the rules of engagement all sound perfect to me.

Final final thought: Splitting this 12 ways seems ideal, but I'm only getting a vibe on 3 solid yesses.

 

[gimpyrobb]

I agree, we can heat the oil prior or make our own inline heater. 3450rpm should be plenty. I would worry more about how dirty the oil is over speed of the bowl. The dirtier it is the more cycles it will need to be fed through.

 

[gimpyrobb]

So I just picked this up today. I wonder if we can just get a bowl made for it.

The bowl is 7 inches but the opening is 11. I think an 8 or 10inch bowl could work.

 

[John S-B]

$500 extra for a variable freq drive? Do you think there would be a significant difference in clean oil quality between the basic and extreme models? I mean the extreme has double the speed, but maybe 3450rpm is good enough. That would drop the price down to $1500. Also, their website claims their variable frequency drive may not work with GFCI outlets, which is all I have in my garage. That seems fishy...I have limited experience with VFDs, but I've never heard of this happening. And my final question is about the heater. While I agree hot oil is easier to treat, how hot will the oil actually get in that inline heater? It says the thermostat goes up to 250F, but how hot do we need it and will the oil even be in the heater long enough to rise that much? The site claims they easily held 150F at 1qt/min flowrate. I could pull my heat transfer book off the shelf and confirm this. Nerd alert!

These are just my thoughts. I don't mean to make it sound like I'm shutting you down. I'm an engineer...I overthink everything.

By the way, the rules of engagement all sound perfect to me.

Final final thought: Splitting this 12 ways seems ideal, but I'm only getting a vibe on 3 solid yesses.

Well I'm NOT an engineer, which is why I'm picking all youse smart guys' brain box. I might just buy a drum heater from Northern Tool as an option as well. And if there are less guys committed to it, yes we can pare it down. Gimpy's find might be helpful as well. Maybe one of you engineer or machinist types can weigh in and see if that lab centrifuge is adaptable.

 

[John S-B]

I agree, we can heat the oil prior or make our own inline heater. 3450rpm should be plenty. I would worry more about how dirty the oil is over speed of the bowl. The dirtier it is the more cycles it will need to be fed through.

Maybe we could have minimum settling time, and a basic minimum filtering requirement. I run all my oil through a 100 micron screen and a magnet before I let it sit.
Another "rule" that might be good is that the group is not liable for any Kaboom's that may occur.

 

[John S-B]

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So I just picked this up today. I wonder if we can just get a bowl made for it.

The bowl is 7 inches but the opening is 11. I think an 8 or 10inch bowl could work.

Gimp, do you have any specs on the motor? That might be the limiting factor on how much bowl it could spin.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Its a Fisher scientific 225. Its max rpm is 3300, not 6000 like I thought, but thats still spinning pretty fast. I doubt the motor would have any issue with a 10" bowl. I never thought to check height space. I'll look this weekend.

 

[maa45069]

I know this is way out there but why don't you take an old clothing dryer motor and put 6 one gallon bottles in it for a centerfuge. just me thinking outside the box.. its free most people throw them away. and the motors never go out... if 6 is too much maybe try 4 lol

 

[John S-B]

I know this is way out there but why don't you take an old clothing dryer motor and put 6 one gallon bottles in it for a centerfuge. just me thinking outside the box.. its free most people throw them away. and the motors never go out... if 6 is too much maybe try 4 lol

A clothes dryer motor isn't going to spin at 3000-6000 rpms....

 

[maa45069]

Like I said it was an outside the box thought lol