Would you pull a M101A3 with a 04 Nissan Xterra?

[quickfarms]

Several of the bent risers that I have seen appear to have been caused by people binding the hitch up when backing at radical angles.

The people that have removed the surge brake assembly are increasing the hitch load because the vehicle is now stopping a trailer instead of the trailer supply its own braking.

I have run a tall riser on one of my trucks for over a decade without any issue.

 

[Iron Bender]

Since they are engineered for all the above except for aggressive off roading (that's why the .mil pintles rotate) which I wouldn't use a 12" riser for, I wouldn't worry about it. And since we have had all of the above happen, aggressive braking, accidents, maneuvering, ect, experience tells me not worry about a 3k load doing something a 9k load hasn't. I believe I posted a photo on a hitch that pulled 8 or 9k that day so I have no idea what you are talking about.

For some reason reese, etrailer, curt, ect have put significantly more engineering and thought into the product than you since they are at risk if their engineering is wrong as you claim it is. You should be able to easily post evidence that these hitches aren't safe in the conditions you post about, Boomer.

Interesting thing about that engineering: Of the 3 sources of 12" plates that you mention, one list the maximum rise as 6" and the other two make no mention or recommendation of their product being used for rise. Perhaps you are assuming too much about what they are engineered for. You could always ask them if their plates are rated for maximum rise and weight capacity. And why a plate rated for 10,000 pounds is so easily bent by 1/8th it's rated capacity.

Due to your claims, I asked for a picture of a 12" riser plate with the pintle in the uppermost position and a 10,000 pound load hitched up. You responded with a picture of a 12" riser with the pintle in the middle of the plate and no load. While I have no doubt that the plate is perfectly fine when used in that manner, it was not what you were claiming. Not convincing of your claims at all.

That the plates are so commonly and easily bent is proof enough for me. It's basic physics. What is going to happen to a 12" plate with the pintle in the uppermost position if the tow vehicle impacts something at 30-40 or more MPH? That plate is going to fail, that's what. It's one thing if you are in a pickup and have a bed to help absorb the impact of the trailer. It's another if you are in a small-midsize SUV with kids in the back seat when the trailer comes crashing through the rear hatch. Have you personally been in a serious accident with a trailer? Just because people get away with booty rigging something doesn't make it advisable.

If you are running with mismatched geometry, that's operator error and the fault of the operator not the product. Basically, if you are doing that you aren't competent enough to tow a trailer and shouldn't be. It's hard to engineer out stupidity. I think every bent plate post I have seen here was due to backing and not the conditions you list.

Mismatched geometry as in insisting on towing a trailer with a tongue height 12" higher than the receiver hitch of the tow vehicle. Your comments become rather interesting in that context.

 

[rosco]

Folks get away with pulling a lot of stuff. That doesn't make it safe. Eliminating the trailer brakes, to save a couple hundred pounds, substantially increases the risk!

 

[therealsundance]

Interesting thing about that engineering: Of the 3 sources of 12" plates that you mention, one list the maximum rise as 6" and the other two make no mention or recommendation of their product being used for rise. Perhaps you are assuming too much about what they are engineered for. You could always ask them if their plates are rated for maximum rise and weight capacity. And why a plate rated for 10,000 pounds is so easily bent by 1/8th it's rated capacity.

Due to your claims, I asked for a picture of a 12" riser plate with the pintle in the uppermost position and a 10,000 pound load hitched up. You responded with a picture of a 12" riser with the pintle in the middle of the plate and no load. While I have no doubt that the plate is perfectly fine when used in that manner, it was not what you were claiming. Not convincing of your claims at all.

That the plates are so commonly and easily bent is proof enough for me. It's basic physics. What is going to happen to a 12" plate with the pintle in the uppermost position if the tow vehicle impacts something at 30-40 or more MPH? That plate is going to fail, that's what. It's one thing if you are in a pickup and have a bed to help absorb the impact of the trailer. It's another if you are in a small-midsize SUV with kids in the back seat when the trailer comes crashing through the rear hatch. Have you personally been in a serious accident with a trailer? Just because people get away with booty rigging something doesn't make it advisable.



Mismatched geometry as in insisting on towing a trailer with a tongue height 12" higher than the receiver hitch of the tow vehicle. Your comments become rather interesting in that context.

They commonly bend...really, or is that what you have just seen posted here? Golly gee skipper, ya think they bend because there are forces applied to it that it wasn't designed for?

Yep, some manufacturers have recommendations some don't, follow your manufactures recommendation. Yep, the hitch we used are safe per the manufacturer to use in that position. Sorry, not running around to look for a picture for some guy on the internets.

As for accidents, me nope, company yes..can't remember a instance of the hitch failing. Though there have been some 40K lbs pintles that have failed due to binding when backing up...I guess they are unsafe too?

Can the Pintle Hook Mount, 12-1/2 Inches Tall, 8K, # 63058, Be Used in the Rise Position

Question:

I need to raise my pintle hitch about 6-8 inches to keep my M105 level...can this be flipped to raise my hitch point? thanks!
asked by: timm b


Expert Reply:
The Pintle Hook Mount, 12-1/2 Inches Tall, 8K, # 63058, can be used in either the drop or rise position, which ever would work best to keep your M105 trailer the most level. You would need to use the maximum number of mounting holes on the Mount that your Pintle Hook will allow.

http://www.etrailer.com/question-10903.html


Gosh, this guy doesn't know anything about mismatched geometry!

 

[Iron Bender]

Do you always get so defensive when your OPINION is challenged?Very telling.

Yes, I have seen enough reports of them bending to consider it relatively common enough to reconsider the idea of using them in in that specific application. As for looking up the manufacturer's recommendation, that is precisely what I did. Not take the equivalent of an Autozone parts counter guy's opinion about proper use of a component.

I have already survived one accident that a subsequent investigation by the DOT, state patrol and an insurance investigator directly attributed to the failure of the receiver hitch on the tow vehicle:



Over time, leverage from a hitch extender, even used in accordance with manufacturer's recommendations, put enough lateral force on the hitch receiver that the bolts holding it the vehicle frame eventually fatigued and allowed the the hitch to shift around, inducing yaw and causing the trailer to immediately and irrecoverably sway out of control. The whole mess jackknifed at 60mph and then barrel rolled down a long, steep embankment. It was pretty sobering experience, one that I was lucky to walk away from. Things can get out of control before you even see them coming or can do anything about it. Walk that ragged edge if you like, I'll stay away from it as I'm not planning on going two for two and continue to advise others to do the same. Deal with it.

 

[glassk]

What about the lift kit on that Tow vehicle, ...??

 

[patracy]

What about the lift kit on that Tow vehicle, ...??

Looks like a stock F250 4x4 to me when it comes to suspension. The body damage distorts a lot of that.

But, by all means, let's continue

 

[quickfarms]

In the engineering world we break failures into two major groups.

A failure indicates that an item gas been damaged or deformed but remains intact and does not break apart.

A catastrophic failure occurs when the item breaks apart.

The risers capacity will be reduced as the leverage increases. The typical pintle hook risers capacity is divided into three main areas. At the straight position the capacity is at the maximum. The second area extends to the limit if the brace. The third area us the weakest and it is beyond the brace.

The failures that have been posted on the Internet involve a bent riser that is usually caused by backing the trailer over a curb and turning sharply at the same time. This action puts an extreme stress on the riser. The damage could probably be eliminated by planning your turn better and putting some blocking in front of the curb to form a ramp.

The scenario of the trailer coming though the lift gate on an SUV would involve a catastrophic failure of one if the components. The riser plate would have to shear off, which is not likely. another scenario involves the riser plate would have to bend and then the bolts holding the pintle on would have to shear or the pintle itself would have to fail. If you are concerned about this you should not use surplus pintle hooks, you can send me your old ones for disposal. If the riser and or pintle did fail the chains would then come into okay to stop the trailer. If the trailer was hit this hard the four bolts holding the young use on might fail or the tongue could bend.

If you are hit by a car the vehicle would probably go under the trailer. This is the same for a factory pick up or van, their frame would go under the trailer. This leaves a commercial truck and if you are hit that hard by one if them this issue is going to be the least of your problems.

I have run the same long riser on my truck for about 20 years and it is not bent even thought it has been hit hard in an accident and tow trailers off road.

After seeing all the people towing trailers that do not know what they are doing I believe that a driver should be required to pass a skills test before they can tow a trailer.

 

[Iron Bender]

What about the lift kit on that Tow vehicle, ...??

Stock heigth F-250. Not even mine. I think a minor contributing factor may have been that the 33" tires on it were D Rated. I won't run anything less than an E Rated tire on my Dodge CTD. Again, for safety reasons.

 

[Iron Bender]

The scenario of the trailer coming though the lift gate on an SUV would involve a catastrophic failure of one if the components. The riser plate would have to shear off, which is not likely. another scenario involves the riser plate would have to bend and then the bolts holding the pintle on would have to shear or the pintle itself would have to fail.

Don't forget that the additional leverage could cause the receiver itself or it's mounting equipment to experience catatrophic failure: Splitting like a banana or breaking lose and allowing the trailer to intrude into the vehicle cabin. Does anyone here think that a vehicle like an Xterra or similar comes equipped with a Class V hitch? Not to mention that many vehicles in this class use unit body designs now.

 

[therealsundance]

Proper maintenance is a key feature in towing safely. Checking bolts and mounting points is part of that routine as is replacing bolts and fixing worn parts. We do it all the time, as it's part of the drivers daily inspection and during PM at the shop.


Btw, Lateral forces are from the side.


We tow more miles in a week than you will in a life time, and don't have the issues of plates bending with normal use. Like stated by another member, he has seen only case involving backing.

 

[Iron Bender]

Proper maintenance is a key feature in towing safely. Checking bolts and mounting points is part of that routine as is replacing bolts and fixing worn parts. We do it all the time, as it's part of the drivers daily inspection and during PM at the shop.

How often do you think the average member here gets up under their rig and thoroughly examines the condition of their receiver hitch and it's associated hardware? How often do you do that on your personal vehicle?

Btw, Lateral forces are from the side.

Correct. I used that term for a reason.

We tow more miles in a week than you will in a life time, and don't have the issues of plates bending with normal use. Like stated by another member, he has seen only case involving backing.

Doesn't matter how much you tow if it's not the equivalent of what is being discussed.

This:



Is not the same as this:

 

[quickfarms]

Don't forget that the additional leverage could cause the receiver itself or it's mounting equipment to experience catatrophic failure: Splitting like a banana or breaking lose and allowing the trailer to intrude into the vehicle cabin. Does anyone here think that a vehicle like an Xterra or similar comes equipped with a Class V hitch? Not to mention that many vehicles in this class use unit body designs now.

You did not mention what type, weight and size of trailer you were towing at the time of the accident.

I have had issues with improperly loaded M416 trailers pushing around a vehicle.

Trailer loading has a great influence on handling

You do bring up a valid point and that is the reason we inspect our vehicles regularly for any of the tel tale signs that could lead up to what happened to you.

Curt makes a 2" receiver for this vehicle but it is only rated for 4000 lbs part no 13183.

 

[therealsundance]

How often do you think the average member here gets up under their rig and thoroughly examines the condition of their receiver hitch and it's associated hardware? How often do you do that on your personal vehicle?



Correct. I used that term for a reason.



Doesn't matter how much you tow if it's not the equivalent of what is being discussed.

This:

View attachment 462202

Is not the same as this:

View attachment 462203

Don't know how often and don't care, it's their responsibility. If you can do the simple things to ensure your vehicle is in the proper working condition, you are not competent enough to do more complex tasks. That's why some states require annual safety inspections, because there are so many incompetent people out there who can't maintain a vehicle safely. Same goes for hitches, if the bolt aren't torqued correctly, they will fail/egg holes.

I check mine regularly. But of course, I'm not a buffoon. If you are smart you use a visual product to make it a simple 10 second job. I also do those other simple things like check tire pressure, bearings, brakes on my trailer, emergency break away, ect.

From receiver hitch installation guide:
Tighten all 1/2-13 GR8 fasteners with torque wrench to107 Lb.-Ft. (145N*M)

Note: check hitch frequently, making sure all fasteners and ball are properly tightened.

So, did you ever do this on the pick-up that rolled?



The one you pictured is bent due to backing up if I remember the thread correctly. If you notice in the other picture, there are rust marks where the pintle use to be mounted in the highest position.

Sorry, experience towing with the pintle mounted in said configuration trumps your I've seen pictures of them bent from backing up makes them unsafe claims.

 

[Iron Bender]

You did not mention what type, weight and size of trailer you were towing at the time of the accident.

20' tandem axle flatbed, operative electric brakes on both axles, hulk partial parts Jeep chained down. Probably 6,000 lbs altogether.

 

[Iron Bender]

Don't know how often and don't care, it's their responsibility. If you can do the simple things to ensure your vehicle is in the proper working condition, you are not competent enough to do more complex tasks. That's why some states require annual safety inspections, because there are so many incompetent people out there who can't maintain a vehicle safely. Same goes for hitches, if the bolt aren't torqued correctly, they will fail/egg holes.

If you don't care about this stuff, why are you even bothering to post about it?

I think you have pretty good idea of how often the average person checks their hitch mounting hardware, yourself likely included subsequent claims notwithstanding: Not all that often, if ever. Which makes advice to be conservative in how much to work it all the more appropriate.

I'll grant that my experience was very atypical, but one atypical experience may be all that someone pushing the limits gets. And I wasn't even pushing any limits. I and everyone who saw that wreck believes I was lucky to walk away with my life, let alone the only medical care required being 3 stitches in a finger and some chiropractic care.

I check mine regularly. But of course, I'm not a buffoon. If you are smart you use a visual product to make it a simple 10 second job. I also do those other simple things like check tire pressure, bearings, brakes on my trailer, emergency break away, ect.

Well even if I question that, let's say you actually do. Do you assume everyone you are giving advice to does?

So, did you ever do this on the pick-up that rolled?

No. As I noted, it was not my truck.

The one you pictured is bent due to backing up if I remember the thread correctly. If you notice in the other picture, there are rust marks where the pintle use to be mounted in the highest position.

You do not remember correctly.

Sorry, experience towing with the pintle mounted in said configuration trumps your I've seen pictures of them bent from backing up makes them unsafe claims.

You mean the experience you have not demonstrated? The same experience you used to justify an opinion that a wheeled tongue jack on an M101A2 is unnecessary because it's always so easy to lift and manuever even a fully loaded trailer?

And it's not just backing up, it's how the buff and draft forces are amplified by the leverage and the end effect on flat plate and hitch receivers, lighter duty ones in particular.

 

[therealsundance]

Funny you're the one here claiming how unsafe it is yet have never provided one example of a hitch or receiver catastrophically failing as you say they will from towing a 3k trailer. Just more BS you can't back up.

 

[glassk]

I hope that is the updated ring, not the aluminum one ,

 

[Iron Bender]

Funny you're the one here claiming how unsafe it is yet have never provided one example of a hitch or receiver catastrophically failing as you say they will from towing a 3k trailer. Just more BS you can't back up.

In the regard, you're the one claiming that your booty rigged set up is perfectly fine just because you've never had an accident with one.

Yeah, like no one has had an accident occur because of some jerry rigged hitch setup.

 

[Iron Bender]

View attachment 462368

I hope that is the updated ring, not the aluminum one ,

Seems like that was a relatively late model trailer, so I would think so.

That guy has since sold that trailer and bought a M1009, anyhow.