Zerex ELC Coolant

[otisroy]

Is anyone running the Zerex(Valvoline) HD diesel coolant in their deuce? It doesn't have SCA, but it says it prevents pitting.

 

[randini]

What does it look like? I have had my Deuce for about 6 mo. It has the lime green stuff, so it look like standard Anti-freeze. How do I tell what I have?
Oh, is there a big difference, between the regular and Diesel anti-freeze? (sorry if I sound stupid)

 

[Jake0147]

Deuces require good old american green coolant. Actually, what I read most recently is 50/50 ethelyne glycol and water (permenant antifreeze, as opposed to when it had to be changed every season...) and with a can of corrosion inhibitor to keep the rust out. American green low silicate formulas are what I've seen called out in newer literature in lieu of making your own.

Anyhow, the silicate based american green (inorganic acid) type is well proven. I'm not sure I would want to switch to an organic (or hybrid, which the zerex might be?), ESPECIALLY with a "breathing" system. Remember when Dex Cool was introduced in the early models with the vented overflow reservoirs, instead of the pressurized degassing tanks? OAT (organic) does not get along well with that at all, hybrids (HOAT) don't like it much either. Being as there's no good way to keep a deuce radiator from breathing, it makes me nervous.

Careful adding chemestry to the organic coolants. (Non-american green coolants). Most of them do not take the standard SCA available at truck shops and NAPA stores. If they need it, they'll have their own supplement. (They'll usually call it a "recharge" or something of the sort). And do keep the chemestry straight. Pick a supplement system and stick with it, including test strips matched to your chosen SCA.

I know in newer stuff, they ditched copper and brass in lieu of stainless before they switched to HOAT... I think it'd be kind of tricky to get rid of all of the copper in a deuce system, and surely you have no super thin aluminum radiator and heater core tubes to protect...

Dunno... Maybe I worry too much, but it's a crazy arse chemestry experiment when you switch coolants, and I hate to give up a very long and trouble free history with a known commodity.

 

[JasonS]

Cavitation erosion is mostly limited to wet sleeve engines and those engines with a history of erosion (ie. Ford powerstroke). AFAIK, this is not one of the multi's weaknesses.

 

[otisroy]

It's red. The Zerex is the local NAPA's offering. I called and told 'em I needed pre-charged coolant and he said he'd have it for for me. Great, so my wife stopped by to pick it up since she drives right by on the way home. She gets home and I look at the bottle and I don't see that it's pre-charged with SCA so off I go to the interwebs and this is from the Valvoline website:

Extended Life Antifreeze/Coolant uses the highest quality virgin ethylene glycol for freeze and boilover protection, and a patented hybrid organic acid corrosion inhibitor package to protect cylinder liners from cavitation and liner pitting and your engine from rust and corrosion.

And, it meets:

ASTM D6210, D3306; Caterpillar EC-1; Cummins 14603, 3666286; Federal Specification A-A-870A;SAE J814, J1034; Detroit Diesel 7SE298; TMC of ATA RP-329B, RP-302; Linkbelt, Thermo King approved; GM 1899M, GM 1825M

Marketing hype?

 

[Jake0147]

No, not "marketing hype" really. Application error. The multifuel engine was an old tired wore out slobbering pig by the time those standards were invented. In fact, "heavy duty coolant" did not exist. An engine had to be built robust enough to not cavitate in the first place, or it did not survive. Also bear in mind, these newer specs, the new designer "use it or blow it up in your face" coolants of today... The whole engine building process is different now. Time was (in the Multi's day) that you built an engine, you poured in coolant (it was green) and if the engine didn't hold together like it should, you FIXED THE ENGINE so that you could release a viable product. Today, not so much so. Engineers have their hands tied by a multitude of strings, ranging from the EPA to the bean counters to the end user's. When they build an engine that "regular" anti-freeze can't keep up with, they have to design a new one. Same with transmission fluids, engine oils, in a few cases power steering fluids... They're custom made to make up for mechanical shortcomings and/or unique demands.

If you want to add your own chemestry (or have the initial dose pre-done for you) the coolant is going to be green. It won't be an HOAT or an OAT. Those are extended life, different chemical makeup, cavitation is handled differently, and the "supplements" that fit those are NOT, NOT, NOT what most folks want in a supplement, they are recharged every two or three hundred thousand miles. Test strips for SCA will flunk this type right out of the bottle. Different animal, different chemestry, different chemical solution to various problems, therefore different concentrations of different chemicals. A litmus strip test has to match what's being tested 100 percent.

Pre-charged (or "fully formulated") is what you were asking for. ELC is what you got, and they are not a direct interchange. There is no SCA for your coolant, therefore they won't tell you it's charged with it. You don't want to put it in there either, that stuff goes in straignt and does it's job as-is. I'm not saying it can't work, I'm absolutely not qualified to do that. But I really have my doubts.

Quick story- Although I'm kinda treading water, the chemistry is over my head, so perhaps an example of why I think what I do... Navistar pumped out a TON of 7.3 liter diesel engines, badged Powerstroke in the Fords, and T 444 E in the Internationals. That is a parent bore engine (No cylinder sleves, the block IS the cylinder, therefore the coolant contacts the outside of the cylinder wall directly). Those engines took plain old American green, with a supplement. In the Internationals, they turned slower, built more torque, and a lot less horsepower. Bigger "bang" when the fuel touched off. They would pit right through the cylinder walls if you didn't keep the supplement up just right. (And if you overdid it of course, the supplement would eat right through the aluminum timing covers). In the Ford's, the supplement is hardly ever used still to this day, and when it is, it's usually misused. Sometimes severely. There are some issues with cavitation but they are rare, but the majority involve "chips" or "tunes" where the "bang" is bigger than it was supposed to be.
Long about the 2000 (2001?) model year somewere, ELC was introduced to this engine. Sensors were changed, coolant filters were removed from the T 444 E version, all copper was completely removed from the engine. Due to the different cooling systems however, Ford and International could not go with the same coolant. Ford had to go with an HOAT to get their radiators to stay together (Premium Gold, I think it's pretty much a G-05, but google that because I get the "G" numbers confused sometimes). IH went with an OAT (Dex-Cool) type. (Rotella ELC was the factory fill). IH did keep some copper in the radiator. They did well with that. None of the OAT/HOAT have anything less than nasty corrosion going on in their timing covers in those engines. International had to toss out a special supplement (stop leak.....) because they couldn't control that corrosion.


What does that tell me? It tells me it's all I can do to keep up, and I'm in way the heck over my head trying to engineer this stuff. If a coolant has a fifty year track record of not causing damage, how can I improve on that? If ELC requires the removal of copper and brass, how can I second guess that? If DCA treated engines have problems with corrosion in their cast aluminum timing covers, who's to say about the gasket surfaces at the intake manifold? And the worst part is that a poor selection will work absolutely, perfectly fine for quite some time, and when the trouble shows up it will be ugly, and it will more than likely be a systematic failure, versus a specific pinpoint issue. Based on that thinking, mine gets good old fashioned american green low silicate coolant, and no DCA. If in another fifty years, some of the earlier multifuel engines start to show evidence of coolant related failures, I may have to reconsider, but thus far this is a solution that's field proven to outlast the engine. Perhaps fifty years from now repowering with nuclear will be more feasible. By then I'll have today's coolants mastered, but I'll bet money that if we get mobile nuclear engines there'll be a designer coolant for them too.

 

[steelypip]

Jake gave a bunch of information there, but his short answer remains the same:

The multifuel is an old engine designed around old technology coolants and lubricants. You don't need, nor do you benefit from anything fancier than what was generically available by 1970.

I suspect that DI water for the mix with the green stuff helps, but is not necessary.