Adding multipurpose hydraulics to the deuce

[rchalmers3]

Here is two different drawings of how you could set it up. The drawings are for a open center system. As you can see, it's built in a loop which is how a open center system has to be set up.

I see you have the filter is installed on the return side, vs the suction side where I drew it. Good to know.

Ty, I think we are describing the same thing: an open center valve (or valves) are needed to create circulation, and must be operated to pressurize the couplings.

I was trying to describe that in my second drawing. The specific detail I am trying to understand is which valve to select for that job.
Would you please reply with a link to the specifications of a valve that you recommend for the purpose? Maybe that will help.

Obviously there are different valves to choose from, and I don't want the valve type (3/3 0r 4/3) to dictate what I can or cannot connect to the system. Does that make sense?

Said differently, I imagine that each implement has it's own dedicated operating valve(s) that install with the implement. The valves on the truck do not operate the implement, they only supply the pressure and return fluid paths.

Clearly I do not have experience with these systems and am seeking some answers that may baffle those that really do know something! Please bear with me as I sort this out.

Generally, the implement you run doesn't care if it's a closed center or open center system. Most implements will run fine with either system.

I can understand that, given the variability of the closed center system. It is good to hear that I won't have that worry when considering implements.

Thank you,

Rick

 

[m16ty]

Here are some valves that may suit your needs- Directional Hydraulic Control Valves | Hydraulic Valves | Hydraulics | Northern Tool + Equipment Detent Hydraulic Valves | Hydraulic Valves | Hydraulics | Northern Tool + Equipment .

Just about any of the valves in the link would work. I know you'd like for me to narrow it down a little but I'm still trying to rap my head around how you really want it to work. Some stuff like a knuckleboom will have it's own valve bank to run it. Things like a hyd winch won't have their own valve so I'd think you'd want to control that at the truck. A detent valve should give you the option of using the truck valve to run the implement or lock it in detent (constant flow) and then use the implement valve(s).

If you are looking for flow out of multiple outlets at the same time it would probably be best to go with a closed center system. While I have worked on closed center systems, I've never built one and don't really have enough experience in that area to tell you how to design it.

 

[m16ty]

Another option would be to do like I did on my dump. The valve is a standard spring centered valve with a air cylinder operating it. There is a air switch in the cab that controls the air cylinder and is locked in position however I flip the air switch.

I can't find a pic of my dump valve but here is some pics of the same basic setup that I made to operate a hyd 45K winch. The first pic is the valve and cylinder. The second pic is the air switch in the cab (forward sends oil one direction, back sends oil the other direction, and center is neutral).

 

[spicergear]

Buy a Unimog MB94 Case truck. Multiple hydraulic front and rear, 'Case Deck' with optional attachment for virtually anything you can think of from tree spade to snow blower to back hoe to a centralized PTO for ag implements. Its a crap load of working making things fit where they didn't...

 

[spicergear]

Oh, and here's one for ole Possum. Uniknick. It's sort of a 406 based center articulating log skidder Mog.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNcHtPVsBbY[/media]

 

[rchalmers3]

Ok, I understand and accept the utility of a 4 way, 3 position, open center valve with a detent on each position. That will give me the "on/off" positions I wanted and in addition will have the reversing feature for operating say, a winch.

Next questions: What size (in GPM) should I build for? What size are most of your implements? Would 12 GPM be too small for some gear or should I shoot for 20GPM? Any suggestions?

Regarding the spool valves. I see I have a a choice between a monoblock and stack valve. The mono blocks appear cheaper and the idea of being able to add valves sounds interesting, but if I do this well it may not be necessary. What do you think about this? Would you go with the monoblock or a stack?

Rick

 

[m16ty]

Some of the stuff you're wanting to run I'm not familiar with. Do a google search on what you want to run (such as a chain saw) and see what the GPM requirement is. I'd suspect 12 GPM may be a little on the low side.

Personally, I'd go with a stack valve. To make several monoblocks work in series like a stack valve bank you have to use a "power beyond" port (some of the cheaper valves don't have a power beyond port). They will work just plumbed "out" to "in" in series (as in my drawing) but they aren't really made to work that way (some valves don't like the back pressure caused by plumbing them this way) and they tend to work funny when trying to operate two valves at the same time.

 

[spicergear]

Also keep in mind that rams and motors should have different valves for them. You can get away with it typically, but valves can be built or purchased with ram spools or motor spools.

 

[rchalmers3]

Also keep in mind that rams and motors should have different valves for them. You can get away with it typically, but valves can be built or purchased with ram spools or motor spools.

Spicergear, M16ty and all,

I have studied this statement and understand what you mean about the different types of valves. Spool valves for motors connect the (A B) power ports to the tank at center position, allowing the motor to push the fluid back. The ram spool valves block the A B ports at center position, lending a hydraulic lock capability and stability to a horizontal ram position.

For maximum utility I would like to install both types of valves. But thus far I am not able to imagine a system where two control valves (each with it's own center type) operate a single hydraulic circuit.

I have found that Prince manufacturers a couple of sizes of 3 way, 4 position control valves that have two center positions! One center position blocks the A and B ports (for rams). The other center position opens the A and B ports to the tank, for motors. These 4 position valves are spring centered to the ram open center position, with a detent for the motor spool position. See the "Option D" schematic drawing located to the lower right of the attached image.

Prince does not offer much choice. I can pick either a 12 gpm rated valve or the 20 gpm model. The 20 gpm model line is more than twice the price for the valve alone. In addition the hoses I'll need to install are larger: 7/8" PT for the 20 gpm vs 3/4" PT for 12 gpm.

What are your thoughts? Would I ever need 20 gpm at 3000psi? Would a dump trailer made out of a deuce bed or a trailer mounted knuckleboom run slow on 12gpm at 3000psi?

Rick

 

[m16ty]

Personally, I'd go with the 20gpm valves, that way you'd have the extra capacity if you needed it.

12gpm is a little on the low side when it comes to the stuff you want to run. Sure, it will run almost anything but I fear it would be too slow for your taste. For instance, a M939 hyd front winch pump outputs around 23gpm at engine governed speed. A M939 winch is adequate but it's not what I'd consider very fast.

 

[Marcel]

Did we talk about this in the long lost Bug-out thread? I can't find the old posts.

We did but the mods threw out the baby with the bathwater

 

[gringeltaube]

................
Would I ever need 20 gpm at 3000psi? Would a dump trailer made out of a deuce bed or a trailer mounted knuckleboom run slow on 12gpm at 3000psi?
Rick

I would say, for that kind of dump or a small KB-crane, NO!

Just a few facts/ specs, FYR:

1) The M977 HEMTT crane: the PTO-driven pump delivers 10-12 gpm @3000 psi; w/engine at 1500 rpm. The max. input flow for the valve bank is 15.5 gpm. The relatively large stabilizer jacks are the ones that demand 12 gpm; every other function works with 10 gpm or less.
That crane is not slow!

2) My dump hoist: with the engine at idle the telescopic cylinder fully extends in about 10 seconds and takes almost 2 gal of oil (=> 10-12 gpm).
Dumping action is quick enough...!

Hope this helps... maybe others can come up with similar examples & data?


G.

 

[rchalmers3]

Gerhard, thank you for these references.

The second example of your dump system sounds like what Ty is recommending in that if the system is capable of delivering 12 gpm at 800 engine rpm then it may have the capacity to pump 20 gpm at 1600 rpm, if the hoses and valves are not a restriction.

Would you please describe the system you assembled: what are the pump specs and is there a speed ratio between the PTO and pump.

Yours is running off the transmission PTO, is that correct? And the transfer PTO runs the same speed as the transmission PTO in high?

Rick

 

[Recovry4x4]

We did but the mods threw out the baby with the bathwater

More like the crap with the toilet water.

 

[Marcel]

More like the crap with the toilet water.

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This is a good thread so we should act like men and continue to add positive posts here.

 

[Marcel]

Here are a few Hydraulics formulas that may help this thread along.

 

[m16ty]

Gerhard, thank you for these references.

The second example of your dump system sounds like what Ty is recommending in that if the system is capable of delivering 12 gpm at 800 engine rpm then it may have the capacity to pump 20 gpm at 1600 rpm, if the hoses and valves are not a restriction.

Would you please describe the system you assembled: what are the pump specs and is there a speed ratio between the PTO and pump.

Yours is running off the transmission PTO, is that correct? And the transfer PTO runs the same speed as the transmission PTO in high?

Rick

Correct.

I may be a little off on the specs because it's been awhile since I've fooled with it but the M939 winch pump I think is rated at 14gpm at 1,000rpm (pto speed, not engine speed although the best I recall it is close to 1:1). The pump shaft speed at governed engine speed is almost twice that.

I should have clarified this in my previous post. I have to agree with G. A knuckleboom or dump doesn't require very much gpm. I know you are wanting to go with some motor driven equipment though and that's where things will slow down at 12gpm. I'll also add that that one persons idea of slow isn't necessarily the same as somebody else.

My M35A2 dump's pump is capable 17.9 gpm at 3600rpm. I normally don't run it near that many rpm but it's still pretty fast. It is a scissor hoist that doesn't require as much fluid as other dump setups. The pump is powered off the t-case pto. I usually run it in second gear at 1,000-1,500 engine rpm.

 

[jesusgatos]

Wow, that sounds like a lot compared to the 5-ton multifuels' engine-driven pump. That's putting out 5-6gpm at what kind of psi? Was wondering whether or not that pump might be adequate to power my winches, but sounds like I'll definitely want to use a second, bigger, transfercase-driven pump. Can we talk a little bit about the best way to integrate those two systems, so they can share a reservoir and filters and stuff? Going to be using the engine-driven pump primarily for steering (full hydro) and brakes (hydromax).

 

[m16ty]

Can we talk a little bit about the best way to integrate those two systems, so they can share a reservoir and filters and stuff?

That's easy. Just plumb two inlets and two outlets into your tank. Your steering and brakes does need to be on a engine driven pump so it drives all the time. All the other stuff only needs to pump when you're using it.

You can get into flow dividers and multiple section pumps if you want to run to different functions at once for some reason off the same pump. I really don't see a reason for this on what you are wanting to do but I was just trowing it out there. hyd systems can be really simple or as complicated as you want it. I've seen some crazy stuff over the years on some equipment.

 

[gringeltaube]

....................
Would you please describe the system you assembled: what are the pump specs and is there a speed ratio between the PTO and pump.

Yours is running off the transmission PTO, is that correct? And the transfer PTO runs the same speed as the transmission PTO in high?

Rick, the basics of that system are described here.
Max. allowed cylinder pressure is 2300 psi. The light duty pump is specified for about 20 gpm @ 1500 rpm, at max. 2500 psi.
Yes, it is driven via a short driveshaft, connected to the rear auxilliary drive of the transmission PTO. That output turns CW, same as engine, at a ratio of almost 1:1. For the Spicer 3053 it is 1:0.975, to be exact.
If the pump was hooked up to the TC-PTO, the transmission had to be put in 4th (direct) gear, for a 1:1 ratio.


G.