max HP out of a 465 multi fuel?

[hornetfan]

Imperfection can be beautiful.

Especially when it works well!

 

[PsycoBob]

I was under the impression that the LDS engines was Supercharged, as in an actual supercharger. While the LDT models were Turbocharged. But according to some of the comments I read here it seems like that both the LDS and the LDT's were turbocharged, or?

At the time the engine was produced, exhaust-driven turbochargers were also referred to as turbosuperchargers. I'm not sure when the engineers dropped the 'super' bit, but I suspect German influence in the original name. They seem to like those 3-12 word concatenations.

Belt-driven and gear-driven non-positive displacement superchargers look like the compressor side of a conventional turbo, with a speed-increasing gearbox attached to a pulley for a drive belt, or geared to the crank. Piston aircraft engines around the age of the LDS-427 & LD/T/S-465 sometimes used the reverse- a exhaust impeller that was connected by gearing to help turn the crankshaft & get a little more power. All of the deuce multifuel engine variants have used exhaust-driven turbochargers, never a automotive-style supercharger.

Actually, I've never seen a conventional supercharger on a diesel, with the exception of the blower in a Detroit 2-stroke.

 

[hornetfan]

At the time the engine was produced, exhaust-driven turbochargers were also referred to as turbosuperchargers. I'm not sure when the engineers dropped the 'super' bit, but I suspect German influence in the original name. They seem to like those 3-12 word concatenations.

Belt-driven and gear-driven non-positive displacement superchargers look like the compressor side of a conventional turbo, with a speed-increasing gearbox attached to a pulley for a drive belt, or geared to the crank. Piston aircraft engines around the age of the LDS-427 & LD/T/S-465 sometimes used the reverse- a exhaust impeller that was connected by gearing to help turn the crankshaft & get a little more power. All of the deuce multifuel engine variants have used exhaust-driven turbochargers, never a automotive-style supercharger.

Actually, I've never seen a conventional supercharger on a diesel, with the exception of the blower in a Detroit 2-stroke.

I actually think a belt driven displacement supercharger like the Whipple on an LDS-465-2 type engine would produce the maximum hp that can be gotten from the 465 engines and still retain decent longevity. My recipe for max horsepower 465:

Whipple supercharger with 5 psi boost at idle and max boost of 12-15 psi. Use charge air intercooler. The MF will make quite a bit more power at low rpms which should be ideal for a heavy truck.

Keep compression ratio at 22:1 and coat piston tops with thermal rejection coating, lighten skirts, use LDS-2 piston cooling

polish rods, lightweight wrist pins, ARP rod bolts and studs for main caps, journal bearings at minimal clearances, carefully balance rotating assembly

LDS IP and LDS-2 high output oil pump and maybe deep sump and extended pickup to keep crank out of oil in sump.

Add boost & egt gauges and turn up pump for max 1100-1200F egt at 14-15 psi boost

Keep rpm below 2800 rpm.

It would be an expensive engine to build but I believe it would make 250-300hp and give good life. And it would retain full multi-fuel characteristics and be easy to start in cold weather.

Anyone agree? Disagree?

 

[doghead]

A little first-hand experience(or reading the TMs or the forums) with an LDT would have kept you from posting any of the above post(BS).

That's a disagree.

 

[hornetfan]

A little first-hand experience(or reading the TMs or the forums) with an LDT would have kept you from posting any of the above post(BS).

That's a disagree.

Feedback is welcome. As for reading the TMs and forums, nope I haven't read them all. Not currently owning and LD or LDT or LDS limits my interest in digging through 1000's of pages. However Continental certainly demonstrated 250hp according to THIS FORUM and other fora. A supercharger would enhance low rpm power when centrifugal stresses are low (avoiding many of the rod issues altogether) and simple polishing & shotpeening rods and balancing the crank and rod assemblies and using top quality fasteners (off-the-shelf) can take the rods in an otherwise stock Dodge Hemi big block or 283 Chevy to amazingly high rpm without danger of losing a rod. I specified that the base engine was an LDS-465-2 or thought I did. If you can't get an extra 50 horse out of an LDS-465-2 engine I would be frankly amazed. And an increase of 30-50% horsepower below 2200 rpm would be good for my truck anyway. Maybe you never see hills or pull loads but I do.

And that is based on FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE. How many engines have you built, dude? My personal count is around 200. Horsepower levels from several hundreds from very small engines (including a Land Speed Record) to 7500 hp Allison V-12 aircraft engines running 3 atmospheres of boost with modified stock SUPERcharger. The Allison (from the P-51 Mustang in case you didn't know) ran at 3500 military horsepower originally. We more than doubled it and the mods were mine. We had been blowing them up with multi-turbos and multi- roots blowers. The overspeed supercharger worked fine and engines held together for long duration offshore races.

I invite criticism that is valid and polite. I spit on insults from a guy that knows nothing about me. You're a rude sob, I'll say that for sure.

 

[doghead]

Show me off the shelf hardware. (search the forums for the correct answer)

How does balancing or any of the other things you suggest, increase HP to 300 hp?

How does boost at idle work?

Did you know the LDT does(or will very easily) make 15 psi boost, with a minor fuel rate adjustment?

Your whole post is "full of holes". I laugh when I read posts like yours.

Rude? No, realistic, informed and experienced.


Dude..

 

[doghead]

From the site rules,

• Do not post unfriendly or insulting comments or replies to other members., This can start unpleasant exchanges which no one wants to read in an otherwise valuable topic. If someone has posted a rude comment to/about the user, the user itself is asked to ignore the remark and report the offending post for review and deletion.

I spit on insults from a guy that knows nothing about me. You're a rude sob, I'll say that for sure.

 

[hornetfan]

Show me off the shelf hardware. (search the forums for the correct answer)
It's not even all off-the-shelf -- some parts out of the engine being rebuilt can be strengthened. If replacement rod bolts aren't available two alternate avenues are available:
1) machine the bolt seat for a different style bolt and replace bolts COTS
2) shotpeen existing bolts which have been picked from large batch of bolts for best fit and condition

Also:
Carefully select from large batch of rods best matched sets. Polish and shotpeen and carefully size and make sure journals are ROUND. Nothing custom here either.

COTS studs or bolts for mains are most likely to be available even if not in ARP catalog. They stock LOTS of stuff not in catalog.

How does balancing or any of the other things you suggest, increase HP to 300 hp?

It doesn't -- it reduces stresses to allow somewhat higher rpm when needed without cratering the engine.

How does boost at idle work?

Strangely enough same way boost at higher rpms works - increases cylinder pressure and available horsepower. If you have 5psi at idle you will have some usable boost just off idle and at 900 and 1100 and 1400 and so on. Was this a serious question?

Did you know the LDT does(or will very easily) make 15 psi boost, with a minor fuel rate adjustment?
yep and can probably find the posts as this was reported in several threads. Increasing Max boost isn't the only magic road to horsepower, sir.

Your whole post is "full of holes". I laugh when I read posts like yours.
I am so delighted you enjoyed the contribution.

Rude? No, realistic, informed and experienced.
Not so far as you've shown me tonight. Misinformation isn't useful information -- the Sovs called it "disinformatzia". Experienced? How many engines built? Whether multi-fuels or others?


Dude..

hornet

 

[hornetfan]

From the site rules,

Thanks. In some of your earlier posts in this thread and others I was wondering about some of your comments to people, especially new people to Steel Soldiers. I'm glad to see the forum discourages it. I assume this applies to moderators as well, correct?

 

[doghead]

You sir, are looking for an argument.

That will get you banned.

You posted and asked if people agreed or disagreed. I simply disagreed, and still do.

I'll hold back my personal opinion of you.

I usually moderate false statements, and misinformation in an effort to maintain the highest quality website. I'll make an exception for you.

 

[hornetfan]

You sir, are looking for an argument.

That will get you banned.

You posted and asked if people agreed or disagreed. I simply disagreed, and still do.

I'll hold back my personal opinion of you.

I usually moderate false statements, and misinformation in an effort to maintain the highest quality website. I'll make an exception for you.

Sorry, no I'm not looking for an argument. But you haven't refuted my points either. So be it we'll leave 'er there. I appreciate the exception I s'pose. Good engine building practice will let a person get the most hp w/o breaking stuff. Even with all stock parts.

Thank you for your understanding. I'll make no excuses as a newbie to SS just basic orneryness as an engineer and engine builder. I hav elearned a GREAT deal up here and hope to contribute to the forum in helpful ways. Really didn't mean to be as argumentative as I see I appeared to be. <kicks the ground>

 

[drgreg]

I won't belabor the point but I'm not convinced that cutting smoke was even the primary reason Continental added the turbo. Better fuel efficiency and more hp had to be way high on the list. It was the '60s, remember? EVERYBODY wanted more HP and the builder's were delivering. The small block Chevy (born same week as me) went from 265 cu in to 283. Buick brought out the first all aluminum V8 gas engine. Big block Chev was born. Ford brought out their big one, too. Mopar brought out big hemi (wow - serious hp w/o hardly trying!)

just my tuppence worth but I think the "only for smoke" argument is mostly smoke -- don't mean to step on toes guys, it's just how I see it.

Wasn't the turbo assembly called the clean air kit?

 

[DieselBob]

I know the exhaust kits I have for the turbo trucks are called clean air exhaust kit. Although they don't include the turbo.

 

[m16ty]

Every now and then somebody comes along to tell you how to make big HP out of a multifuel or a NHC250. Most of them have gas racing engine experience and no big diesel experience. They hang around a while and talk about big mods mostly found in race engines then they fade into obscurity without ever building said engine to prove their point. Build it and I'll eat crow, until then it's all talk. While it's theoretically possible to build a 250+ HP mutifuel, it's cost prohibitive and kind of like trying to polish a turd.

I'm all for some cost effective mod to raise HP a little but when you start throwing $1,000+ into it a 5.9 Cummins or other comparable engine starts making a lot more sense. Why would you spend thousands of dollars to make 6bt hp when it would be a lot easier to just drop in the Cummins? Unless it's just to prove a point but as I've said, I have yet to see somebody do it.

 

[welldigger]

Not to derail the topic but I would think a better discussion would be what engine/ tranny combos would be a suitable replacement for the MF. For instance what engine and transmission combo would fit in the deuce engine bay and not have to move the transfer case? Even if you had to move the engine forward a bit. Other than turning up the fuel a bit there doesn't seem like there is much you can do to a MF to increase power that won't grenade the lower end.

 

[m16ty]

I'm biased toward Cummins so I'd go with a 6bt. Plenty of room and good hp. You could use the stock trans but you may want to go with something a little heavier and better gear ratios. I haven't took any trans measurements so I'm unsure what would fit.

A Cat 3208 or International DT466 would also be candidates.

 

[welldigger]

I'm biased toward Cummins so I'd go with a 6bt. Plenty of room and good hp. You could use the stock trans but you may want to go with something a little heavier and better gear ratios. I haven't took any trans measurements so I'm unsure what would fit.

A Cat 3208 or International DT466 would also be candidates.

I agree pretty much with everything you stated. I'm not exactly looking to convert my truck. At least not till the ldt craps out. Though crossing fingers she's still running strong. But if I were to do it I would like as much though preferably more power. I would also like to go automatic with some variant of Allison or Eaton auto. It would also need a good overdrive gear ratio. 1 to 1 final gives no real advantage over an A3. Which is painfully slower than my a2. It would also need to be a fairly common engine and tranny for parts availability.

 

[welldigger]

Also I meant to add a gas engine would not be out of the question. I have an 02 Chevrolet c6500 with a drilling rig mounted on it. It is powered by an 8.1L vortec mated to an Eaton 6 speed manual. That truck easily weighs double what the deuce weighs and it will blow the doors off my deuce. And gets about 10mpg doing it.

 

[VPed]

I second the gasser route as a posible replacement. I build Pontiacs that should have no trouble exceeding the torque capabilities of the Mf at the same RPM. The MF is a hoot to me but if I need to repower, I will be looking hard to this as an option.

 

[Nasty610]

Just being curious has anyone ever tried milling the OE piston bowl to reduce CR? This would have the added benefit of reducing piston weight to a small degree. I don't have any back ground in diesel engines but I just don't see that it would be that hard to get decent numbers from a MF. I would honestly think a modern turbo and decent IC would allow you to have a much broader power curve while still allowing you up your peak figures. Please correct me if I'm wrong or at least explain why a cheap used turbo and IC just wouldn't work.