New brake shoes or not?

[gimpyrobb]

Thats one of the reasons I do 15thou top and bottom. No need to swap back and forth to different feeler gauges.

 

[ivbeenrokd]

I tried doing 15 but it really didn't seem to be any better. Realistically 15 all around is probably closer to where it is now though.

 

[ivbeenrokd]

Okay, I've been through these brakes several times now and am still having problems. It brakes fine if I ease into them but if I hit them moderate or hard it takes off to the right. I readjusted the fronts brakes with what I felt to be a good adjustment last week and it still pulled right. I readjusted the rear brakes today and struggled to get them the way I wanted them but they were at least even between the left and right. I then went for a test drive and it still pulls right under moderate to hard braking. Once I'm in the petal I can hit it as hard as I want and it doesn't pull but if I initially hit it moderate or hard it pulls right. After adjusting the brakes many times I'm at a loss.


Any ideas?


The front brakes are adjusted to 15 all the way around. The rear brakes are as follows:


rear left:
front shoe - 5 on top, 20 on bottom
rear shoe - 15 top and bobottom


rear right:
front shoe - 15 top and bottom
rear shoe - 5 on top, 20 on bottom

I realize the rear adjustment is not ideal but it is the best it will do, they are simply too tight to do any better.

 

[Tow4]

If it's pulling to one side, that's a front brake issue.

How are the brake lines (hoses and steel) on the front? I've had rubber hoses deteriorate and restrict the flow applying and releasing the brakes. I had a blow out from brakes dragging, one wheel on a rear axle got so hot the tire melted.

 

[ivbeenrokd]

The frame lines are original but I just replaced all flex lines with braided stainless and all axle hard lines with new lines. I hope not to melt any tires, ever!

If it's pulling to one side, that's a front brake issue.

How are the brake lines (hoses and steel) on the front? I've had rubber hoses deteriorate and restrict the flow applying and releasing the brakes. I had a blow out from brakes dragging, one wheel on a rear axle got so hot the tire melted.

 

[ATPTac]

I know you've been doing quite a bit of modifications to your suspension... I know this might seem like a stupid questions but: is everything tight? I have seen several times where (on cars and light trucks) bad/loose ball joints and tie rods cause a nasty pull when braking. Also, how are your wheel cylinders? Is your right side hub/drum getting hotter than the left?

 

[ivbeenrokd]

Everything was put on tight but it obviously wouldn't hurt to go back and check again. I know the ball joints feel good as I've worked with the tie rod lately while installing the air assist and I also greased everything a couple of weeks ago.

I've also wondered if the air assist has contributed to the severity of the pull since it has made the steering a little looser.

I probably haven't driven the truck enough to see a difference in heat as I really don't want to drive it much like this. It does fine with normal braking but if I had to do a panic stop I wouldn't be able to keep it in my lane. I'll jack up the front tire, spin it, hit the brakes, and see if it releases fine.

I know you've been doing quite a bit of modifications to your suspension... I know this might seem like a stupid questions but: is everything tight? I have seen several times where (on cars and light trucks) bad/loose ball joints and tie rods cause a nasty pull when braking. Also, how are your wheel cylinders? Is your right side hub/drum getting hotter than the left?

 

[ATPTac]

Everything was put on tight but it obviously wouldn't hurt to go back and check again. I know the ball joints feel good as I've worked with the tie rod lately while installing the air assist and I also greased everything a couple of weeks ago.

I've also wondered if the air assist has contributed to the severity of the pull since it has made the steering a little looser.

I probably haven't driven the truck enough to see a difference in heat as I really don't want to drive it much like this. It does fine with normal braking but if I had to do a panic stop I wouldn't be able to keep it in my lane. I'll jack up the front tire, spin it, hit the brakes, and see if it releases fine.

You might want to start there. The last 3-4 cars I've worked on that had a pull when braking had loose suspension parts (one had a loose tie rod, the most recent was an extremely loose lower ball joint) beyond that its either locked up calipers, slide pins (which don't apply to you), or bad lines. I know it might be hard to tell with a Deuce, but is it a dive (meaning the truck veers off without the steering wheel turning), or an actual pull (it jerks the steering wheel)? Typically speaking a dive would indicate a loose or worn out component versus a pull would indicate something in the actual braking system. That's a rule of thumb and not necessarily always true.

 

[ivbeenrokd]

Okay, I'm starting to pull my hair out on this.

I checked and double checked all steering and suspension today to make sure everything is tight, it is.

I jacked up the front end and spun the tires making sure both tires would stop and release at the same time. Test drove, pulled right.

I adjusted the brakes again and found that the passenger front drum had more resistance than the driver when the brakes were all the way out. I pulled the passenger hub and loosened then nut 1/8 turn and reassembled. Seems to spin more like the driver side now. Test drove, pulled right.

I bled the front brakes again, test drove, pulled right. I then noticed it would pull right when I hit the pedal hard, pull right if I was already in the pedal and hit it hard, but not pull right if I ease into the brakes for a normal stop.

The fact that I've looked at all mechanical aspects and have found nothing coupled with the fact that if I'm already in the pedal and I hit it hard it still pulls right makes me think its got to be fluid delivery. This made me think about what may have changed on the fluid delivery left to right. All new lines on the axle are the same. I didn't change either wheel cylinder. However, the 90 degree fitting on the back of the wheel cylinder on the driver side stripped when installing the new lines. I took one off the rear axle I had sitting in the floor and replaced it. I took the one that came off and compared it to the other one still left on the rear axle and there was a difference but it was opposite of what I expected. The one that came off the front had a smaller hole than the one that came off the rear. After examining closer it looks like it may have been a piece of the end of a brake line that sandwiched in there but it wouldn't come out. Anyone know if these 90 degree fittings are different on the front and rear axles?

Picture: top came off the front driver side before I drove the truck 6 weeks ago, bottom came off the rear axle.

 

[SCSG-G4]

A smaller diameter point in the line would affect how much fluid reaches the brake cylinder in the short run (braking hard), but not the total amount in a closed system (slow, steady braking). Thus, it looks like you have found a possible problem and the solution!

 

[ivbeenrokd]

But the strange part is that is the fitting that came off the front of the truck 6 weeks ago before this began. The one with the larger hole is likely identical to the one that's on the truck now, but I couldn't say for sure until I check.

 

[Kloakndagr]

After reading the 50 posts, please keep posting updates. I'm really curious as to the outcome. Thanks and good luck.

 

[welldigger]

This is a total shot in the dark, but are your left and right wheel cylinders the same bore size?

 

[ivbeenrokd]

I couldn't be sure, but they haven't been replaced and have been on there for at least 4 years.

 

[ATPTac]

Hmm... it does sounds like you have either a restriction in your fluid delivery or an excessive flow.

 

[welldigger]

Ok next question. When you adjusted the shoes did you leave a gap between the shoe and drum at the top or did you adjust the upper side to where it ever so slightly rubs on the drum when you spin it? I adjust mine out to where you barely hear/feel them drag. After you drive it for a few miles it will wear the pad even where it wont drag but is as close as possible to the drum.

I would also replace the wheel cylinders. Its almost as if one is a different bore size or maybe has some contamination or corrosion not allowing the pistons to move as they should.

 

[ivbeenrokd]

I've got 15 thousands all the way around on the shoes. You can barely hear the high spots rub.

 

[ATPTac]

I'm with welldigger on this one... Replace your wheel cylinders and double check all your lines and make sure you don't have any restrictions.

 

[peashooter]

.

The fact that I've looked at all mechanical aspects and have found nothing coupled with the fact that if I'm already in the pedal and I hit it hard it still pulls right makes me think its got to be fluid delivery. This made me think about what may have changed on the fluid delivery left to right. All new lines on the axle are the same. I didn't change either wheel cylinder. However, the 90 degree fitting on the back of the wheel cylinder on the driver side stripped when installing the new lines. I took one off the rear axle I had sitting in the floor and replaced it. I took the one that came off and compared it to the other one still left on the rear axle and there was a difference but it was opposite of what I expected. The one that came off the front had a smaller hole than the one that came off the rear. After examining closer it looks like it may have been a piece of the end of a brake line that sandwiched in there but it wouldn't come out. Anyone know if these 90 degree fittings are different on the front and rear axles?

Picture: top came off the front driver side before I drove the truck 6 weeks ago, bottom came off the rear axle.

View attachment 476526

Yeah, you probably just found your problem.
If I understand correctly:
-Brakes work OKAY if you gradually step on the pedal
-truck pulls to the right if you quickly apply the brake pedal
-Front passenger side banjo fitting was recently replaced and now has a larger fluid passage than the drivers side (most likely anyway, until you check)

Sounds like the passenger side wheel cylinder is able to apply brakes faster due to a less restrictive banjo fitting. You might as well replace the wheel cylinders at this point or at least compare the banjo fittings on the front axle WCs.
If you do replace them, perhaps you want to get the front A3 wheel cylinders that are 1.5" diameter bore rather than the normal 1-3/8" of the a2 deuces and rear axles of the a3. It would give you a little more stopping force and you will have the fluid volume to spare now that you bobbed the truck and 1 less axle. I think member 197ttthc has a bobber brake setup in the works like this.
Either way new replacement wheel cylinders are $20-30 bucks from suppliers, if you are in a rush you can go to napa and get part# UP4419 which is the replacement wheel cylinder (1-3/8" bore)

 

[ivbeenrokd]

I think you've got it all right except I replaced the drivers side fitting which would make sense if it was pulling left. I think I just need to pull those fittings off and check them but it will be a couple of days before I can. Thanks for the tip on the larger cylinders, I didn't realize the a3 had that. I'll let you know what I find.