Total brake failure during a panic stop

[DavidWymore]

I seem to recall reading that exhaust brakes were not recommended on these trucks.

Cranetruck is running one.

 

[Yarz]

Let me ask this of all the Deuce owners here. How long have you owned your Deuce & have you (not a friend, acquaintance, or third person story) personally had a brake failure while driving? What was the cause & did you ever have another failure after properly fixing the cause?

My incident was not nearly as tense as Kaiserjeeps, but I did lose my brakes one morning when I was going to take my deuce to work. Luckily I was still in the driveway when a line blew (I believe it was a rear hard line). I had owned it for 2.5 years after it sat for an unknown time with the previous owner.
I decided that it was time to redo the whole system.. New copper/nickel hard lines, new braided stainless flexible hoses, new wheel cylinders, rebuilt master cylinder, rebuild air pack, and a remote reservoir.

Now, before I leave, I stand on the pedal for 15 seconds or so, and then do some (slow) test stops just to make sure everything is functioning properly. I don't want to be the reason someone else loses a car/house/etc. or worse..

 

[m1010plowboy]

OK first question. Yes we know in a sealed system the pressure will be the same in any place along the line, but the Air-Pak is basically two systems. It gets a little confusing since it does share the same fluid source, but the master cylinder only applies the Air-Pak. The Air-Pak using air pressure increases the line pressure up to around 800 PSI. The master cylinder itself only pushes a small valve which opens an air valve in the Air-Pak which allows air to push against the large air piston which pushes the rod in the Air-Pak fluid chamber which pressurizes the fluid out into the brake lines then to the wheel cylinders. The harder you apply the brake pedal, the more air your allowing into the Air-Pak chamber which in turn pushes harder against the rod which pressurizes the brake lines more. There is a small metered orifice between the master cylinder and the Air-Pak which allows fluid to flow when it is "Not" pressurized. I know it gets a little hard to follow. If only I had a "Power Point" on this. But basically there is two brake systems. I have a brake gauge installed in my deuce and without any air pressure built up I can get the gauge to go up to about 500 PSI if I really push hard and use the steering wheel to pull against. Something you normally would not do. With normal air pressure (120 PSI ) and applying the brake normally I can reach pressures well over 800 PSI . If I really mash down like I did without air pressure I can reach over 1000 PSI . So basically the Air-Pak doubles the pressure from the wheel cylinder.
Second question. I'm not saying to stomp on your brakes, just use them normally, and yes it will keep your shoe linings and drums lasting longer if you are better aware of your surroundings so you "don't " need to slam on the brakes. It is a good thing to "exercise" your brakes daily. It keeps things moving which can rust up and helps keep seals lubed. I once did a complete brake system rebuild on a truck which the owner proudly said " I never need to apply my brakes ! " . Well the whole thing was a pile of rust ! The rear shoes had actually rusted to the anchor pins and backing plate. I needed to hit it with a hammer to remove them ! The springs had rusted as did the adjuster wheel. Since this was a truck that used DOT 3 brake fluid the wheel cylinders had also rusted since the pistons never came out of the bores. The only thing stopping this truck was the front brake pads (disc brakes) and if he really ever needed to do an emergency stop, his truck wouldn't !
I always say our vehicles are just like the human body. If you don't use them they stop working. So use your brakes normally.

Thanks Rustystud, that description was similar to climbing in the master cylinder and jogging through the tubes all the way to the wheel cylinders. That is some serious pressure so I can appreciate how good the brakes work whenever the troops would haul a full load in the Early Deuce. I barely need to touch the pedal to get Goose to slow down.

Besides timing and anticipating red lights, the M135 likes it if I push on the brake pedal (pre-load) long before I think I'm going to stop. It's just that confidence with feeling the brakes grab a little before they're needed. It also gives more time to look for an "out" if there ever is a brake failure as well as time to grab the 'hilly' gear and an e-brake if needed.

Hopefully this will help some of the 'heavy' truckers get to the next SS rally safely.

 

[AZK9]

... Besides timing and anticipating red lights, the M135 likes it if I push on the brake pedal (pre-load) long before I think I'm going to stop. It's just that confidence with feeling the brakes grab a little before they're needed. It also gives more time to look for an "out" if there ever is a brake failure as well as time to grab the 'hilly' gear and an e-brake if needed. ...

You just described exactly how I drive any/every vehicle. As a firefighter, having 'rolled-up' on countless MVAs... I wonder why
more drivers don't operate their vehicles that way. A huge thumbs up for that post, m1010ployboy!

 

[rustystud]

Thanks Rustystud, that description was similar to climbing in the master cylinder and jogging through the tubes all the way to the wheel cylinders. That is some serious pressure so I can appreciate how good the brakes work whenever the troops would haul a full load in the Early Deuce. I barely need to touch the pedal to get Goose to slow down.

Besides timing and anticipating red lights, the M135 likes it if I push on the brake pedal (pre-load) long before I think I'm going to stop. It's just that confidence with feeling the brakes grab a little before they're needed. It also gives more time to look for an "out" if there ever is a brake failure as well as time to grab the 'hilly' gear and an e-brake if needed.

Hopefully this will help some of the 'heavy' truckers get to the next SS rally safely.

It's kinda funny. My specialty was and has always been Transmissions and Differentials, but I have worked on more brake and suspensions then anything else . Engines and electrical come in second and third. Transmissions and differentials don't fail as often as people think.

 

[Wolfgang the Gray]

My incident was not nearly as tense as Kaiserjeeps, but I did lose my brakes one morning when I was going to take my deuce to work. Luckily I was still in the driveway when a line blew (I believe it was a rear hard line). I had owned it for 2.5 years after it sat for an unknown time with the previous owner.
I decided that it was time to redo the whole system.. New copper/nickel hard lines, new braided stainless flexible hoses, new wheel cylinders, rebuilt master cylinder, rebuild air pack, and a remote reservoir.

Now, before I leave, I stand on the pedal for 15 seconds or so, and then do some (slow) test stops just to make sure everything is functioning properly. I don't want to be the reason someone else loses a car/house/etc. or worse..

How much (roughly) did that whole system redo run you? I read in the mod section here where a guy put in a whole 6-wheel disc brakes from a Ford F450. I'm trying to figure out if it is a design flaw, bad parts, or what that causes these failures. I mean, my Jeep has hydraulic brakes and I have over 309K miles on it now & never once was there a brake failure. I completely understand getting a vehicle that may have been neglected by its previous owner. Usually the first thing I do when getting a new (I've only ever had a new bike, everything else is "experienced") vehicle is replace ALL the fluids, along with the hoses & belts. If one takes their new deuce & does a full replacement of the whole system, is that a safe "guarantee" that the brakes won't fail the next time the truck goes out for a spin or is it Murphy's law to the 10th level?

 

[DavidWymore]

I think a lot of it is time and some wear. These trucks are old, they sit a lot. Seals dry up and metal rusts.

 

[Wolfgang the Gray]

I think a lot of it is time and some wear. These trucks are old, they sit a lot. Seals dry up and metal rusts.

What about putting seal protector on the seals & keeping the metal in a dry environment (the brakes don't hold water after it rains do they, I mean they drain like regular brakes, yes?), that should ensure no brake problems?

 

[scboolitcaster]

I don't sweat it too much. But I do make it a point to look for things that are wrong and fix them as I find them. Check my brakes and fluid before I go anywhere.
That's why I installed the remote reservoir; I know at some point I'd be in a hurry and not check, and something bad happen.
It's all about managing the risk.
You definitely can't treat one of these trucks like you would a modern vehicle and just jump in and drive it.

I drive mine several times a week, too. From all I see, problems seem to crop up most when they sit.

 

[DavidWymore]

What about putting seal protector on the seals & keeping the metal in a dry environment (the brakes don't hold water after it rains do they, I mean they drain like regular brakes, yes?), that should ensure no brake problems?

Brake lines and wheel cylinders rust out from the inside if water, even condensation gets in the system. I think the hydraulic system is supposed to be flushed annually...?

Seals and gaskets fail inside wheel cylinders, etc. brake fluid is supposed to preserve them.

Everyone preaches brake inspection, but you can't inspect all of it, so that's why testing is recommended.

 

[Wolfgang the Gray]

OK first question. Yes we know in a sealed system the pressure will be the same in any place along the line, but the Air-Pak is basically two systems. It gets a little confusing since it does share the same fluid source, but the master cylinder only applies the Air-Pak. The Air-Pak using air pressure increases the line pressure up to around 800 PSI. The master cylinder itself only pushes a small valve which opens an air valve in the Air-Pak which allows air to push against the large air piston which pushes the rod in the Air-Pak fluid chamber which pressurizes the fluid out into the brake lines then to the wheel cylinders. The harder you apply the brake pedal, the more air your allowing into the Air-Pak chamber which in turn pushes harder against the rod which pressurizes the brake lines more. There is a small metered orifice between the master cylinder and the Air-Pak which allows fluid to flow when it is "Not" pressurized. I know it gets a little hard to follow. If only I had a "Power Point" on this. But basically there is two brake systems. I have a brake gauge installed in my deuce and without any air pressure built up I can get the gauge to go up to about 500 PSI if I really push hard and use the steering wheel to pull against. Something you normally would not do. With normal air pressure (120 PSI ) and applying the brake normally I can reach pressures well over 800 PSI . If I really mash down like I did without air pressure I can reach over 1000 PSI . So basically the Air-Pak doubles the pressure from the wheel cylinder.
Second question. I'm not saying to stomp on your brakes, just use them normally, and yes it will keep your shoe linings and drums lasting longer if you are better aware of your surroundings so you "don't " need to slam on the brakes. It is a good thing to "exercise" your brakes daily. It keeps things moving which can rust up and helps keep seals lubed. I once did a complete brake system rebuild on a truck which the owner proudly said " I never need to apply my brakes ! " . Well the whole thing was a pile of rust ! The rear shoes had actually rusted to the anchor pins and backing plate. I needed to hit it with a hammer to remove them ! The springs had rusted as did the adjuster wheel. Since this was a truck that used DOT 3 brake fluid the wheel cylinders had also rusted since the pistons never came out of the bores. The only thing stopping this truck was the front brake pads (disc brakes) and if he really ever needed to do an emergency stop, his truck wouldn't !
I always say our vehicles are just like the human body. If you don't use them they stop working. So use your brakes normally.

If you send me some photos & hand diagrams, I would be happy to build a Power Point on this and load it up for the site. I'm good at doing that kind of stuff.

 

[Wolfgang the Gray]

The one we use at work is the "Vericom" VC4000 .
I realize this unit goes for $1400.00 but there are other cheaper units out there like the "Matrix" 3 Axis unit which sells for $250.00 plus shipping on eBay.

Just searched for both & found neither on ebay. Oh well, guess it is like hunting for dear. They aren't stocked on the shelves.

 

[Wolfgang the Gray]

Had an idea...valve to close off air intake, probably after turbo. Emergency shutdown in case of runaway and would provide engine braking in case of brake failure.

From what I've read here, because there is no throttle body, the multi-fuel engines don't provide much engine braking so that won't work. That was my thought too at the start. I'm still waiting for my deuce so can't say in a practical sense yet.

 

[Wolfgang the Gray]

There are a number of choices in any smartphone's "app store" for G Force meters or accelerometer readouts. Since almost any modern smartphone has a surprisingly good 3 or 6 axis accelerometer.

It may not be as well calibrated as a 1400 or even 250 dollar unit, but it should give you a very good idea if you have a sturdy way of mounting your phone in the cab.

I thought the tester was for psi of the brake system or something like that. If it is just an accelerometer, yes, I have one of those on my phones already.

 

[DavidWymore]

From what I've read here, because there is no throttle body, the multi-fuel engines don't provide much engine braking so that won't work. That was my thought too at the start. I'm still waiting for my deuce so can't say in a practical sense yet.

Shutting off or restricting the intake or exhaust will take the place of the throttle plate.

 

[Wolfgang the Gray]

Shutting off or restricting the intake or exhaust will take the place of the throttle plate.

I still like the anchor method of stopping. If the brakes fail, press a big red button on the dash & some dead weight gets ejected out of the bed on a chain to stop the vehicle. An old Cadillac would work well I think.

 

[Yarz]

How much (roughly) did that whole system redo run you?

I dug through my receipts for you. I apologize if I've omitted something, or if I have included unnecessary items, as I was doing my front axle boots at the same time. I purchased parts with multiple purchases from multiple sources, so this MAY or MAY NOT be ACCURATE with prices you find now.

Here's what I found on my reciepts:

Number	Part	Price
1	1/4" Cu-Ni Line	61.99
12	1/4" Tube Nuts	7.98
1	5/16" Cu-Ni Line	62.46
8	5/16" Tube Nuts	3.52
1	5/16" Union -Needed because I messed up	2.99
2	5/16" Tube Nuts	2.99
6	Wheel Cylinder	124.50
4	Outer Hub Seal	12.00
6	Inner Hub Seal	14.50
6	Wheel Cylinder Rebuild Kit	31.00
6	Large Banjo Washers	2.00
6	Smaller Banjo Washers	2.00
6	Tab Lock Spindle Nut	5.85
6	Axle Flange Gasket	2.50
1	Master Cylinder Rebuild Kit	28.50
1	New Master Cylinder	67.35
1	Air Pack Rebuild Kit	80.00
5	Flex Lines	265.00
	TOTAL	777.13

If one takes their new deuce & does a full replacement of the whole system, is that a safe "guarantee" that the brakes won't fail the next time the truck goes out for a spin or is it Murphy's law to the 10th level?

Naturally, it can't be a complete 100% guarantee, but should greatly decrease the odds that it will fail - we cannot ever rule out manufacturing defects in parts.

I started out thinking I would just do part of the system, but did not want to take the chance of leaving something to fail due to age. I did the whole system for that comfort of knowing that I removed the weak link(s) to the best of my ability.

 

[scboolitcaster]

I still like the anchor method of stopping. If the brakes fail, press a big red button on the dash & some dead weight gets ejected out of the bed on a chain to stop the vehicle. An old Cadillac would work well I think.

Finally a use for a cucv!

 

[rustystud]

Just searched for both & found neither on ebay. Oh well, guess it is like hunting for dear. They aren't stocked on the shelves.

The "Vericom" isn't sold on eBay but the other one is. Here's the link. http://www.ebay.com/itm/162064182578?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

[gimpyrobb]

An exhaust brake would help too.