A3 4x4

[tobyS]

Wanting to remove one rear axle (not shorten frame aka bob however) and want to confirm some things.

I have a donor M105. I expect to use the shorter bed and fabricate toolbox to fill the space. I will remove the bumper-etts(??) to have the open pintle near to the rear axle and align the rear of the 105 bed with the back of the frame (shorter than cargo). Tires to be 395's.

Question...can I cut the frame of the M105 on both sides of the spring attachments, or even longer, and use the entire frame section, springs and all, under the A3 rear to attach the axle? I think that 5" frame raises it the right amount, but I hope someone will confirm it. I can weld and plate the two frame sections together.

The front of the frame and pintle ring from the 105 with the roll around jack, is being used for a tandem trailer, made from the A3 OEM bed, into a trailer dump bed.

 

[gimpyrobb]

What you are asking has been done. Its also been the subject of LOTS of conjecture!

I expect this thread to get quite lengthy.

I believe the original thread was started by Hundy (hundred dollar man) if you want to search for it.

 

[tobyS]

Chris, I looked at several threads with "Hundy" but didn't see anything specific to using the frame section. Maybe my research skills are slipping at late night. I'll try again. I have to go to the sawmill and retrieve the trailer, so don't have the torch in hand yet.

 

[rustystud]

What you are asking has been done. Its also been the subject of LOTS of conjecture!

I expect this thread to get quite lengthy.

I believe the original thread was started by Hundy (hundred dollar man) if you want to search for it.

There are several safe ways to shorten and lengthen the deuce frame. I cannot follow your train of thought here though so I don't know what your trying to do. Since the deuce frame is not "hardened" like the 5 ton is, it is pretty straight forward to chop away at.

 

[tobyS]

Last night I continued looking and found a good thread about Hundy using a section of the 105 frame from spring mount to spring mount. (I made a comment that I found it, including a link, but the comment is not posted here).

Anyway...I was asking about use of the 105 frame by cutting out a section and mounting the entire section under the deuce frame in the back.

I see what Chris is saying about the thread potentially getting long (from reading numerous other threads). Some people are passionate about modification, others are critical of using the 105 frame section, some would not weld anything....and I read that the frame is not hard and can be welded. Lots of different opinions that I didn't find in my initial search.

What seemed to stand out is the metal thickness. The trailer has less metal thickness. Another issue is the driveshaft clearing the 105 cross-member, that must have room, so needs a driveshaft tunnel.

I just read one that says it looks cheaply done. I don't know if I agree.

Mounting the 105 springs on the frame directly makes it too low and needs blocking to raise it, then is subject to the stress that blocks make, (think that is axle wrap or something).

I wish my note (from after Chris gave me the hint) had posted. I can't re-locate the thread to link it this am. It was complete, although long.

Note...I'm not shortening the frame so technically it's not "bobbing".

 

[rustystud]

So basically your making a standard truck, correct ? Then I would just get a set of front springs and hanger mounts and install them on the rear axle. Maybe add a few extra leafs. No need to get all crazy and creative. This way there is no welding, just drilling some extra holes for the spring mounts.
And yes the deuce frame is "not" hardened so you can weld away to your hearts content.

 

[rustystud]

So this is what you want ? and yes I know this is a 5 ton.

 

[Floridianson]

[QUOTE=tobyS;2000022
I just read one that says it looks cheaply done. I don't know if I agree.

How can you not agree that the frame is much thinner. It was never meant to hold up or take the pressures of a truck. My book cheap way to get a body lift and I bet the DOT would agree.

 

[Suprman]

Just get a m1078 and make it into a dump bed.

 

[tobyS]

I'm at the saturation limit Will. Three is nearly too many now. The 929A2 was a serious (dump) investment but seems to only had troop seats in it, so it's a keeper. I haven't got the guts or money to go to another model.

I crawled under and looked at the frame of the deuce and compared to the frame of the M105. Yes the steel is thinner but remember it's being added to the trucks frame, not entirely replacing it and is in compression...giving more than enough frame strength, I believe.

What stands out to me is that the strength of the M105 is very much tied into the crossmembers, 4 of them involved, that have to be nearly cut away for the driveshaft, at least on the front. I like the spring mounts being wider on the axle, than using the deuce front springs.

Okay, I'm convinced the frame section does need an alternative mount...any suggestions to bring it up 4", using the 105 spring and frame perch(s)? I have some 4" H beam that's heavy and could box one or both sides in and make cross-members that tie to the truck frame cross-members. I really don't mind it reducing the load capacity some, but I do want the pintle not too far from the rear axle, so strength should be on the heavy side.

Yes rusty, a lot like the 4x4 five ton you put up. I'm thinking sizable tool box in the in-between space (cab to 105 bed) and probably a set of tanks for cutting torch (in a box). I wish I had (another) portable welder for it, but I have mine on a ranger truck bed (trailer) that is so compact and fits my pickup, so is not going on it (will have a 2 5/16" ball to pull it though). Problem is...small unit entirely disappears behind the deuce.

The deuce bed becomes a dump trailer. I have (2) 7K axles that have HMMWV wheels, so proportions are not too wacky.

 

[steve6x6x6]

You need to look up my thread " bobbing my M35A3"

 

[tobyS]

You need to look up my thread " bobbing my M35A3"

Oh yea Steve. Here is a link for anyone else:

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?88840-Bobbing-my-M35A3

Great workmanship.

Now that you have driven for a while, what do you think of the ride? Would you do anything different? I might start with a box tube about 4 x 4 x 3/8" and run the length, front to back, not have separate pieces. Would there be any interference? Doesn't look like it?

Your's is cut shorter (bobbed). Do you think the rear of the frame, and specifically the OEM pintle is too high if I leave the OEM frame, just removing bumpers? Do you think you got the shock placement right? Is there a camber to the rear axle on yours?

At first looking at the frame pictures, it looks like the back is slightly high, but with the bed on and looking at it straight from the side, looks about level...which is where I want to end up. That's about 4" lift, correct?

Thanks...I know you put a lot into it and your thread documents it well..

 

[steve6x6x6]

Oh yea Steve. Here is a link for anyone else:

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?88840-Bobbing-my-M35A3

Great workmanship.

Now that you have driven for a while, what do you think of the ride? Would you do anything different? I might start with a box tube about 4 x 4 x 3/8" and run the length, front to back, not have separate pieces. Would there be any interference? Doesn't look like it?

Your's is cut shorter (bobbed). Do you think the rear of the frame, and specifically the OEM pintle is too high if I leave the OEM frame, just removing bumpers? Do you think you got the shock placement right? Is there a camber to the rear axle on yours?

At first looking at the frame pictures, it looks like the back is slightly high, but with the bed on and looking at it straight from the side, looks about level...which is where I want to end up. That's about 4" lift, correct?

Thanks...I know you put a lot into it and your thread documents it well..

No i do not have any lift in my truck, it is stock front and level to the rear. I love the look I made for the back end of my truck.

 

[Two Stroke Madness]

Since the deuce frame is not "hardened" like the 5 ton is, it is pretty straight forward to chop away at.

Is that true? That the deuce frame is not hardened?

 

[rustystud]

Is that true? That the deuce frame is not hardened?

Since I try and back up everything I say here's the proof.

View attachment Scan0184.pdfView attachment Scan0185.pdf

 

[Two Stroke Madness]

Since I try and back up everything I say here's the proof.

View attachment 674974View attachment 674975

I would never label third party information as proof. I have come across quite a few mistakes in those manuals before, so I would rather have seen something from the manufacturer. I just find it hard to believe that a truck frame like that would not be factory hardened. It's not like it's that difficult to harden a frame, and it gives it so much more strength. I don't know... I'm still sceptical.

 

[tobyS]

Hardening the frame doesn't give it more strength, better metal and more of it does. Heat treating brings it to it's optimum strength but will never make poor steel quality better. Apparently the 5 ton frame is a metal that is more subject to Hydrogen embrittlement in the heat affected zone, making it more critical (even prohibited) than the deuce.

Myself, I've welded sawmill equipment that takes a beating worse than most of these trucks will ever have to endure. I take the criticism of welding seriously, especially for guys that have to mig weld and don't know the difference of 6011 rod and 7018.

Lets close the debate on welding a deuce frame down please... so not to prove Gimpy right about the thread length. Thanks.

 

[tobyS]

Placement of shocks...is there an optimum placement of shocks that will help to keep the ride less of a "log wagon" that comes with so much spring pack?

Steve, yes, I like the looks at the rear too. I might go for a bumper of some type though, so the height of the open tailgate will be an issue. I like steps as I get older but I don't want interference with the full swing of a pintle (or ball). You have a beautiful truck and extremely well crafted...thanks for your input!

 

[Floridianson]

I would never label third party information as proof. I have come across quite a few mistakes in those manuals before, so I would rather have seen something from the manufacturer. I just find it hard to believe that a truck frame like that would not be factory hardened. It's not like it's that difficult to harden a frame, and it gives it so much more strength. I don't know... I'm still sceptical.

Rusty is correct and if you ever tried to drill through a Deuce then a 5 ton frame the difference is night and day.
I only use annular bits and the Mag drill on the 5 tons.

 

[Two Stroke Madness]

Rusty is correct and if you ever tried to drill through a Deuce then a 5 ton frame the difference is night and day.
I only use annular bits and the Mag drill on the 5 tons.

Oh okay... I've only drilled through 5-ton frames before with a mag-drill, but never a deuce frame. I'll take your word for it.