FLU419 SEE HMMH HME Owners group

[hrbergeron]

I replaced the shifter bushing this weekend. My SEE wouldn't shift into 1st or 3rd. I'd rather put in a $12 part than drop the transmission any day. There was almost nothing left of the old one. Shifts better than when I purchased thing war digger a year ago.

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[Migginsbros]

rtrask , I think the position of the top and bottom of the spring according to the adjustment of the rods is important.
Also think about clearance to the dog house and/or the cab.

 

[peakbagger]

Let me start out that the throttle liinkage on the SEE is nighmare worsened by how it it appears to added in once they fit the engine through the smallest hole in the cab they could. Add in the extra remote throttle for the backhoe and it get even more complex. That said I expect the Mercedes mentality meant that what thery designed works the way they designed it and if you dont like it dont buy it .

About a year ago I started having issues with the linkage and made an adjustment to the long shaft on the injection pump side of the engine. Various folks with more skills suggested that I should determine why I needed to adjust something that was probably in the right place to begin with. I got it running and thought I was done with it. About a month later the whole linkage went to heck and i was stuck in the woods with a non functioning throttle. Turned out I had some bent components including the accelerator pedal and some parts on the inside of the tunnel that were bent out of shape probably from abuse and lack of adjustment over the years. I put some new those parts in and got everything working much better but its still not 100% occasionally refusing to turn off or on rare occasions pinning the throttle. I expect that if I undid my original throttle adjustment and spent a couple of hours I could get it back to the way it was intended. It is complex system but there are no shortcuts. I expect it would be much easier with the cab tilted and its on my list if and when I do finally have to tilt it.

 

[Speedwoble]

The length of the connecting rod I made is the same as the original and it is adjusted out as long as possible so that the hand throttle will stop the engine when all the way forward. In fact I have to go a little beyond the stop for the engine to die.

One idea I have is to drill a new hole in the bracket so the spring is closer to the engine block..

When Mercedes designed it, they weren’t fools. Something has changed in the mean time for it to not work. On mine, the plastic hand throttle gets lifted to the side and swung down past the stop to kill the engine. When it is against the stop, it should be at idle. Am I miss-reading your statement that you move it against the stopto kill it?

 

[rtrask]

rtrask , I think the position of the top and bottom of the spring according to the adjustment of the rods is important.
Also think about clearance to the dog house and/or the cab.
View attachment 761285View attachment 761286

MigginsBros, Thank you.

Your picture is worth 1000 words. It shows clearly what I had suspected. The lever for the throttle goes a lot further toward the back of the vehicle than mine does. I would bet a large sum that if you push the accelerator pedal all the way to the floor the spring never goes past or even close to vertical, which is the tipping point where the spring acts against it returning to idle. If you still have it tipped, you could help me a lot by measuring the approximate dimensions of the triangle formed by a vertical line passing through the place where the spring connects to the bracket, and the connecting rod and from that point to the swivel where the connecting rod attaches to the spring, and the stretched length of the spring. Labled side A, B, and C on the diagram below. Also while you are at it if you can give me the the length of the connecting rod from locknut to locknut that would be helpful too.

By the way that is the cleanest looking best maintained engine on a SEE I have ever seen. Kudos to you for your care of it.

Let me start out that the throttle liinkage on the SEE is nighmare worsened by how it it appears to added in once they fit the engine through the smallest hole in the cab they could. Add in the extra remote throttle for the backhoe and it get even more complex. That said I expect the Mercedes mentality meant that what thery designed works the way they designed it and if you dont like it dont buy it

.


About a year ago I started having issues with the linkage and made an adjustment to the long shaft on the injection pump side of the engine. Various folks with more skills suggested that I should determine why I needed to adjust something that was probably in the right place to begin with. I got it running and thought I was done with it. About a month later the whole linkage went to heck and i was stuck in the woods with a non functioning throttle. Turned out I had some bent components including the accelerator pedal and some parts on the inside of the tunnel that were bent out of shape probably from abuse and lack of adjustment over the years. I put some new those parts in and got everything working much better but its still not 100% occasionally refusing to turn off or on rare occasions pinning the throttle. I expect that if I undid my original throttle adjustment and spent a couple of hours I could get it back to the way it was intended. It is complex system but there are no shortcuts. I expect it would be much easier with the cab tilted and its on my list if and when I do finally have to tilt it.

If you remember my linkage was badly bent too. I wondered at the time and still suspect that someone in the motor pool decided it was easier to adjust the throttle by bending the linkage rods than following the TM procedures. Since you have been through it without tipping the cab you know the incentive for taking a short cut (not excusing it, just recognizing the temptation). I agree in theory with what your “Various folks with more skills” said which is part of the reason for my post. But the “don’t fix it” wisdom is preceded by “if it ain’t broke,” So the problem is that it is broke. The question is how best to fix it and identifying what broke.

Since both you, pinsandpitons, and I suspect others have experienced similar problems it is not unique to me. The only variables are the rod connecting rod that I made, and the lever on the injection pump. Unless the connecting rod was replaced with the wrong one before I got it, the one I created was equivalent. Perhaps your wife is more understanding than mine, but putting a grand or more in to fix this problem by buying a new injection pump is not an option. Perhaps there is something serviceable on the injection pump I have that would allow me to rotate the lever. I am kind of afraid to go there. “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” keeps ringing in my ears, because the engine runs like a top right now.

When Mercedes designed it, they weren’t fools. Something has changed in the mean time for it to not work. On mine, the plastic hand throttle gets lifted to the side and swung down past the stop to kill the engine. When it is against the stop, it should be at idle. Am I miss-reading your statement that you move it against the stopto kill it?

Speedwoble There is no one that I respect more on this forum than you. You always give good advice. I know that the engineers that designed the system were not fools. So when I say that I think the design has a flaw, I mean no disrespect. There are always a lot of competing pressures that go into design decisions. I know that the vast majority of the 419s out there do not have this problem. All I can say is that the rod I replaced it with is the same length, and I need to find a solution. Currently my hand throttle kills the engine in exactly the same way as yours. You have to pull it out to get past the stop and give it a nudge to shut it off. From my reading of the TM 5-2420-224-20-2 pages 4-68 - 4-69 the correct adjustment is when the handle hits the stop. It should kill the engine. The decal on the dog house says the same thing. Also I don’t think the engineers at Mercedes would have you pull the hand throttle out and past the stop like that.

1. With engine idling, push hand throttle (1) all the way forward to its stop.
2. If engine continues to run, adjust accelerator linkage using following procedure:

a. Loosen nut (2).
b. Remove clip (3).
c. Disconnect ball socket (4) from pivot ball (5).
d. Turn ball socket (4) counterclockwise to shorten connecting link (6).
e. Connect ball socket (4) to pivot ball (5)TM 5-2420-224-20-2ACCELERATOR LINKAGE ADJUSTMENT (CONT)
f.Install clip (3).
g. Tighten nut (2).h.
​

Repeat step 1. If engine continues to run, repeat step 2 until engine stops running when hand throttle (1) reaches its stop.
​

3.If engine stops running before hand throttle (1) reaches its stop, adjust accelerator linkage using following procedure:

a. Loosen nut (2).
b. Remove clip (3).
c. Disconnect ball socket (4) from pivot ball (5).
d. Turn ball socket (4) clockwise to lengthen connecting link (6)
.e. Connect ball socket (4) to pivot ball (5).
f. Install clip (3).
g. Tighten nut (2).
h. Repeat step 1. If engine stops running before hand throttle (1) reaches its stop, repeat step 3 until engine stops running when hand throttle (1) reaches its stop.

​

NOTE: Follow-on Maintenance:Install inside engine hood (page 4-389).

 

[Pinsandpitons]

I looked at that procedure when I was adjusting mine and decided it was too "army motor pool technician" specific. So I took a good hard look at how the whole thing worked and made a few adjustments. I couldn't tell you now all of what I did (sorry) but one thing was move the pedal position on the splined shaft. Maybe that's part of the problem? Just throwing that out as another point of adjustment. In fact I readjusted the drivers side mechanism a while back so that the max injection pump position coincides with the pedal to the metal. (there was a bit of power left on the floor, pun intended) All this is to say that I think damaged parts should be replaced but the system as a whole should be looked at with a critical 'american' eye. German engineering is great, but american can do, make it work, horse sense, ingenuity is the bees knees.

 

[Migginsbros]

MigginsBros, Thank you.

Your picture is worth 1000 words. It shows clearly what I had suspected. The lever for the throttle goes a lot further toward the back of the vehicle than mine does. I would bet a large sum that if you push the accelerator pedal all the way to the floor the spring never goes past or even close to vertical, which is the tipping point where the spring acts against it returning to idle. If you still have it tipped, you could help me a lot by measuring the approximate dimensions of the triangle formed by a vertical line passing through the place where the spring connects to the bracket, and the connecting rod and from that point to the swivel where the connecting rod attaches to the spring, and the stretched length of the spring. Labled side A, B, and C on the diagram below. Also while you are at it if you can give me the the length of the connecting rod from locknut to locknut that would be helpful too.
View attachment 761423

The cab is not tilted anymore, but we will have a closer look on weekend without the doghouse, measure and take photos.

 

[hrbergeron]

I'm having a problem. When I use the accelerator pedal fast or press it close to the floor, the hand throttle kicks back from where idle is to about half throttle. I have to manually put the hand throttle back to idle every time. Is this because of a lubrication point that needs to be serviced? Anyone else had this problem?

 

[The FLU farm]

I'm having a problem. When I use the accelerator pedal fast or press it close to the floor, the hand throttle kicks back from where idle is to about half throttle. I have to manually put the hand throttle back to idle every time. Is this because of a lubrication point that needs to be serviced? Anyone else had this problem?

Not that I have that problem, but it sure sounds like lubrication could be the simple solution.
I suspect that stiff pivot points are responsible for most throttle linkage issues, especially when a heavy size 12 stomped on the pedal in the storage yard, prior to the auction.
Putting new/different bends in the rods and levers that way surely didn't do the geometry any favors.

 

[Pinsandpitons]

I'm having a problem. When I use the accelerator pedal fast or press it close to the floor, the hand throttle kicks back from where idle is to about half throttle. I have to manually put the hand throttle back to idle every time. Is this because of a lubrication point that needs to be serviced? Anyone else had this problem?

Yes, I had that problem and lube was half of the two pronged solution, the other was a new return spring.

 

[rtrask]

I'm having a problem. When I use the accelerator pedal fast or press it close to the floor, the hand throttle kicks back from where idle is to about half throttle. I have to manually put the hand throttle back to idle every time. Is this because of a lubrication point that needs to be serviced? Anyone else had this problem?

Just to pile on,
I got that spring through core parts https://corepartsmb.com it cost me $5.00 + shipping. just search on A4259930110

If the lube and spring don't do the trick, there is some adjustment on the hand throttle,



The spring we are talking about is (6). The manual does not say anything about adjusting that rod, but similar to the throttle connecting rod, it has a locknut on both ends and the length can be adjusted, but that should be a last resort. From your description it sounds like it only happens with sudden moves so it is probably adjusted just fine. As Peakbagger quoted "Various folks with more skills suggested that I should determine why I needed to adjust something that was probably in the right place to begin with". Don't mess with it until you know why exactly it needs to change.

 

[Migginsbros]

rtrask

The cab is not tilted anymore, but we will have a closer look on weekend without the doghouse, measure and take photos.

It´s really much easyer with the cab tilted. But here some measurement without the doghouse.
A: 128mm (5.039") vertical to the nut of the rod clevis A: 148mm (5.826") to a horizontal line of the ball end (A+B 90°)
B: 40mm (1.574")
C: 150mm (5.905")

 

[rtrask]

Thank you Migginsbros. Happy Easter.

Your pictures and the dimensions are very helpful. The third picture answers a question I had about which position to attach on the drivers side. Currently I am attached in the middle position, but I think changing that will not resolve my basic problem. The dimensions you gave me should help.

The lever on the injection pump is keyed and should only go on one way. The lever rotated on the spline is the only variable that could account for the difference though.


I have been thinking about trying to pull that access cover off to see if I can figure out what is wrong, but I don't want to tip the cab, it is a very tight access with out the cab tilted and other than the issue with the throttle going over center everything is running so well I hate to mess with it. I am still tempted to move the point where the attaches on top toward the front of the engine, which would be easy to do if not the ideal solution and would solve the problem provided the lever on the injection pump does not slip on the spline any more.

 

[peakbagger]

I think there are a couple of other issues that haven't been mentioned. Some of them conspire to make things even more difficult. If you look at various parts suppliers they sell accelerator pedals and accelerator pedal bushings, I don't think they do it for the chuckles, I think they are just a popular part. The accelerator is in a dirty location and dirt can and will get in the bushing and eat the bushing and the shaft that goes through the tunnel. Remember the throttle is not attached to anything, it just engages a roller against a curved ramp that actually is tied to the linkage. The actual point of contact is cantilevered out on the shaft from the bushing quite a bit so the throttle bushing gets a lot of side to side force. There is another issue that given the fairly low horsepower of the engine I expect most folks on occasion mash the pedal to the floor which can stress the shaft if the rods are not adjusted correctly. The tunnel has an access panel that I expect many folks have removed to access the starter. I expect more than few folks have snapped off bolts or just plain skipped bolts to reinstall this panel. This makes the drivers side tunnel a bit "floppy". Add up all these and the accelerator shaft tends to deflect downwards from horizontal roughly in the opposite direction of the roller. When I did my original adjustment I didn't realize that was the issue so I lengthened the rod from the Injector pump to the pivot on the cross shaft that goes through the block. I patted myself on the back and it worked for awhile until it deflected further and eventually I was stranded as the roller didn't line up with the curved pad.

At that point I made sure all the bolts were installed on the access panel and replaced the accelerator pedal and bushing and got it horizontal. Once I did that the roller lined up with the curved plate and I adjusted everything from the drivers side. Everything works now except that when I go to shut it off it can take one or two tries. I expect if I went back and reset the rod on the right side back to where it should be I could probably adjust things better.

Note the shaft pivots are snap on but they also have thin wire clips that are a bear to get off and put on. They are poorly identified on the drawings and to date I haven't been able to get one of them back on due to the tight clearance and big hands. If the cab was up I would have better access and would make sure to replace all these as I expect someday when I least expect it the shaft will pop off the pivot.

A general observation is that the military must not have trained their techs very well on these throttle linkages as many SEES seem to have the same issue of a screwed up throttle linkage. Reminds me of my old Alfa Romeo with mechanical fuel injection. There was a nest of adjustable linkages and a brief case of special tools and containers of mercury to balance the drafts and adjust the linkages. if it didn't go into the dealer yearly it was noticeable that it just didn't run as well as fresh from an injection tune up.

 

[rtrask]

On a lighter note, I was wondering if any of your 419s have honorable war wounds (rat attacks don't count). I thought initially that mine may have taken a 50 cal in the bucket, but on closer inspection I decided it was some other violent encounter.

 

[The FLU farm]

Speaking of lighter notes, I must point out that I had a very nice visit with General Hood and his lovely wife last week.
I can highly recommend that you stop by - especially if it's not during tornado season.

Oh, and don't park where I did. I'll have to send him about a cubic yard of dirt to help fill in the rut I made.

 

[Pinsandpitons]

Did it look like this?

 

[The FLU farm]

Did it look like this?

The rut, yes, except it was much longer. Also, it was in an area of previously flawless lawn.

 

[Migginsbros]

in the early days......... We don´t know about lawn shaping

 

[The FLU farm]

in the early days......... We don´t know about lawn shaping

That was the wrong Thing to go mudding in. No pun intended.