MEP-004A, No output

[Guyfang]

Peter,
If the starter cranks the gen starts immediately.
It is if sometimes it is not getting enough juice (you only hear the cyliniod, (What solenoid?) trying to get the juice), but continuing flipping the switch it seems it got plenty of juice and cranks fast and fires off.
As far as I know normally when you hear the cyliniod only (it is like a hum), it is not getting the juice, Loose wire, corroded wire. (true, or it can mean the solinoid is bound up. and wants to work, but can't.)

Guy thanks for the info.
Will go shopping tomorrow
I bought an assortment of copper washers, but I guess they were not the correct size
The seals I uninstalled were black and seemed to be rubber or plastic. Maybe I am wrong.
So I will take them out and measure them. I have very accurate calipers.
Kris

When you get them, they should be copper, (or some copper alloy). They should have ridges, or rings on one side, and slick on the other. The ridges go against the injector lines.

 

[Guyfang]

Kris,

Besides the solenoid on the starter itself, there is the Battle Short Switch S7 which connects to the Speed Switch 9-1 and a Diode CR3 (I think only on precise units) which supply power to the crank relay K3 when Switch S2 is held in Start Position. True. But when CR3 goes bad, its bad. Never an intermediate fault. Works, or doesn't work. So I would toss that one out of the equation. As S7 doesn't have to move, its more or less there in parallel to the circuit, I would tend to not suspect it.

S9-1 is at the instant of turning the S2, in the closed position, (or not). In the norm, it works or it doesn't. Its closed and the engine spins, or its open, and nothing happens. So I would not think its part of the problem. Repeated use of the S2 will have no impact on the S9-1. It cant make it move until the engine turns. I would start with the S2, and we have tested it, (doesn't mean its not the problem). Only if I tested S2 under power, would I trust it. So we need to do that. I would also test K3. And under power. Ohms is all well and good, but its not reliable. In German, we call an ohm meter a Lügen sager. A teller of lies. The only true way to test, is under power. That leaves only the L4, start solenoid.

If Brian has a S2, Kris could borrow it and try it. The K3 is a very normal part on lots of equipment. The only problem I see is it has to be 24 volts. If you could borrow one and try it, that would be nice. The L4 is more or less mounted to the starter. You could take the starter to a shop, but that not cheap, and we can try other things first. Above all, all connections need to be tight. I would check that first. When I get done eating, I will write up how we can test S2 and S7 And K3 under load.
Crank Relay K3 then activates the Starter Solenoid.

so, we got four or five different possible devices for failure.

I am sure Guy knows the easiest way to trouble shoot this. I recently had a customer with a similar problem on his 803A and in that case it turned out to be failing crank relay.

Can we rule out your wire fix issue you had in SP Box for good? That would have to be the first thing to rule when properly fixed.


View attachment 777892

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[flydude92]

Kris,

PM me your address. I will send the S2 switch to you.

You should get it about the time you get the washers.

You might even get this thing fixed.

So, what will you do with your spare time when your generator is fixed???

Brian

 

[KLChurch]

Brian
PMed you.
Yes this has taken a long time.
Believe it not, also I'm working.
But I am at a loll at this point.
Cant really do chargeable work until my patent is applied for.
Kris

 

[KLChurch]

Found some copper washers in my assortment that may work temporally.
Will install on the sprayer and see if it seals or drips.
Kris

 

[KLChurch]

Interpreting Guy's post of the washers dimensions are as follows:
OD = .500 +- .005 inch
ID = .3825 +- .0025 inch
Thickness = .060 +- .005 inch
Material = steel
Grade = 1010 ASTM (Very mild steel)

The washer that was installed before I bought the gen is as follows:
OD = .5125 inch
ID = .378 inch
Thickness = .057 inch
Material = Steel ( magnetic )
Grade = ?

So the washers are not to specs.
Even though I would believe they would work.

This is a thought:
Maybe it is more important that the ID of the washers to be the same, for controlling equal flow.

Kris

 

[peapvp]

When I get done eating, I will write up how we can test S2 and S7 And K3 under load.

Guy, how are you enjoying your 7 Course Soiree?

 

[KLChurch]

Peter,
In all defense for Guy he didn't say he was going to post just write it up. LOL
Kris

 

[Guyfang]

Guy, how are you enjoying your 7 Course Soiree?

OK, OK, OK.

So I took a nap. It turned out to be a long nap. Woke up in time to go to bed. Today is my first day at work again. Its EARLY. Am not used to this anymore. So, before I go to work, here it is.

The essayist way to go about this is so. Take the bottom of the S/P Relay box off. Ge a multimeter with roach clips, (Alligator clips to you young folks) and hook one side to a good ground. The other lead should go to K3. There are two big terminals. The big terminal with the wire number P142A is the side to connect to. That wire goes to the L4, Starter solenoid. You set the meter for VDC. Then you watch the meter. Someone else turns S2 to start. What you hop is, that it will not start. You want to see it hang fire. If it wont start, HOLD the S2 in the start position!! Then you look at the meter to see if you have 24 VDC. If the engine will NOT turn over, and has voltage on P142A, then I would say L$ Starter solenoid is bad, or going bad.

If the set will not start, and you have no VDC at P142A, then turn off S2. Take the roach clip off of P142A. Put it on one of the small terminals of K3, with the wire number P48A. This is the hot wire to the K3 relay. Turn S2 to start position. Hope it hang fires. If so, do you get 24VDC there?

Now have to get to work. Get this far and tell me what happens. Will continue when I get home.

 

[KLChurch]

My helper is on vacation today so it will be vary difficult to do this today.
Also I am cleaning all the terminals of the batteries and starter. ( Prolly no improvement in starting)
Also see if the IP washers I have will be a temp fix.
Kris

 

[flydude92]

Kris,

The S2 switch is on the way.

It should be there Thursday

Brian

 

[KLChurch]

Thanks Brian

 

[KLChurch]

Update:
Yesterday I installed 2 temporary copper washers on the high pressure IP line that was the sprayer.
Also previously I tested the IP ground wire and it tested OK. Then tightened both wires.
Cleaned all battery terminals including the solenoid terminals.
Tried to start the gen and it would not start. So I spent the rest of the day charging the batteries.
Today with fully charged batteries I tried to start the gen.
It took five minutes of flipping the start switch to get it to start.
After 3 minute of the gen running I flipped the load breaker. No sparks and breaker light came on. So I assume there was electricity to L1,L2, & L3
I continued running the Gen for an additional 15 mins.
During the running I checked the IP for leaks. No leaks so my temp washers were sealing.
Witnessed the water temp gage and it seems to be correct for the length of time the gen was running.
Witnessed the charging gage and it seems to be reading the was I think it should show. Also one can assume the alternator is fine.
Oil pressure was above 45 psi at all times.

So,
At this point trying to start the gen is getting more difficult.
But I finally got enough guts to flip the load switch and everything seems fine there.

Guy,
So I guess next is to test the exciter box to troubleshoot the starting problem. I wish there was an easier way.
Kris

 

[peapvp]

Kris,

That's great! Did you have Voltage reading on your Voltage Gauge and 60Hz?
The exciter doesn't become active until your engine is running at 600 - 900rpm, so it's out of the picture for starting

Update:
Yesterday I installed 2 temporary copper washers on the high pressure IP line that was the sprayer.
Also previously I tested the IP ground wire and it tested OK. Then tightened both wires.
Cleaned all battery terminals including the solenoid terminals.
Tried to start the gen and it would not start. So I spent the rest of the day charging the batteries.
Today with fully charged batteries I tried to start the gen.
It took five minutes of flipping the start switch to get it to start.
After 3 minute of the gen running I flipped the load breaker. No sparks and breaker light came on. So I assume there was electricity to L1,L2, & L3
I continued running the Gen for an additional 15 mins.
During the running I checked the IP for leaks. No leaks so my temp washers were sealing.
Witnessed the water temp gage and it seems to be correct for the length of time the gen was running.
Witnessed the charging gage and it seems to be reading the was I think it should show. Also one can assume the alternator is fine.
Oil pressure was above 45 psi at all times.

So,
At this point trying to start the gen is getting more difficult.
But I finally got enough guts to flip the load switch and everything seems fine there.

Guy,
So I guess next is to test the exciter box to troubleshoot the starting problem. I wish there was an easier way.
Kris

 

[KLChurch]

The HZ gage was at 55hz and the volts 208. Was to lazy to adjust the hz because I was concerned about everything else. (worried about something going wrong)
Kris

 

[KLChurch]

Guy,
Question, If we test for 24 volts at the starter solenoid, we could the rule out whether it is bad or problem up the line towards the exiciter box?
Kris

 

[peapvp]

Thanks and that sounds good to me!

The HZ gage was at 55hz and the volts 208. Was to lazy to adjust the hz because I was concerned about everything else. (worried about something going wrong)
Kris

 

[Guyfang]

The HZ gage was at 55hz and the volts 208. Was to lazy to adjust the hz because I was concerned about everything else. (worried about something going wrong)
Kris

Oh ye of little faith!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[peapvp]

Oh ye of little faith!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Guyfang]

Guy,
Question, If we test for 24 volts at the starter solenoid, we could the rule out whether it is bad or problem up the line towards the exiciter box?
Kris

Kris, the exciter has nothing to do with starting. The S/P relay box is what you mean I think. If you want easy, then wait for the S1 from Brian. Then put it in. See if it starts right. If not, then we can go from there.