MEP-002A, will Start, Run then dies....any suggestions?

[rickf]

Yes thats the point. The slug seizes up, when the pump is disassembled (except the slug) compressed air in the output can be used to dislodge the slug if a solvent and tapping doesnt work.

I have only had a pump badly gummed up once to need to blow it apart.

You are correct, I was not thinking on all cylinders last night. The ball I mentioned is in the bottom of the piston so pressurizing it will push up on the piston. Have a rag over the end in case it blows out and do not use full shop pressure.

 

[Scoobyshep]

You are correct, I was not thinking on all cylinders last night. The ball I mentioned is in the bottom of the piston so pressurizing it will push up on the piston. Have a rag over the end in case it blows out and do not use full shop pressure.

Hey now, not only am i going for removal, I am also trying to break a distance record

 

[1FAST4]

Definitely sounds like fuel starvation to me too, but the smoke has me puzzled.
Typically they don't smoke like that when starved for fuel.
I'm thinking 2 things, fuel starvation or possibly insufficient air flow.
I wonder if you could be getting CO building up in the shed if the air outside is stationary ( no breeze )
Do you have an easy way to open up the enclosure ( roof maybe ) to try it.
Or put a fan blowing air into it?
Lastly, be careful letting it run and die down like that too many times, you can blow the VR transistors doing that.
Might be worth disconnecting the field wires from the VR until you get the engine sorted out.
Check the schematic, I think it's wires 7&8 or 8&9 ?? look for F1 and F2 to the generator.

You can't see it in the videos but when the Gen Set is in used I can and do open all 4 sides of the shed for air flow. When I built it, I knew that was important and have never had an issue when it was running for extended periods.

I will also look into how to disconnect to VR for added protection while I (we) figure it out.

Right now, its dumping rain here and expected to do so for the next 3 to 4 days. So, I'll be holding off doing anything on the unit until the weather clears a bit.

 

[1FAST4]

Troubleshooting. The only way to exclude the Fuel system from the problem equation is to:

Remove all three pumps. Take them apart. Its easy. Soak them in some wonder fluid to remove the crud/lacquer, and reassemble. Bench test them. Both electrically, and by pumping fuel into a bowl. Then sand down the points where the Bolts/nuts attach the pumps to the frame. I would 100%, put new serrated washers on all the mounting hardware, on both sides. These pumps need good grounds. Then if you haven't , take the whole fuel system apart and clean/inspect it. Put it all back together, and test. If you have no leaks, this system will last you many, many years. Do not forget the check valve.

Once the weather clears here a bit a will get into checking/cleaning the whole fuel system.

Two question...
What "wonder fluid" would you recommend for soaking?
I see 3 check valves between the Fuel Tank and the IP, is that all of them?

 

[2Pbfeet]

@1FAST4 Thanks for the informative videos.

So, it could be fuel starvation, but when I have experienced fuel starvation, the engine tends to start, run, then fade, and die, not fade and get better, and then fade and die.

The three things that I have seen do fade, better, fade and die are a) debris intermittently clogging fuel line somewhere (engine vibration can knock debris around), b) an air leak into the fuel system causing injection issues (and since yours runs ok for awhile, the leak is likely small), and c) a gummed up governor rack that isn't moving freely and sticks. Given the smoke on dying, I would tend to suspect option b or c.

I think that that style pump typically has two check valves per pump.

This storm does look to be a gulley washer for a lot folks in NorCal/Oregon.

All the best,

2Pbfeet

 

[Ray70]

+ on the air leak ( in suction side upstream of pumps ) check lines, fittings and the dip tube inside the tank.
You won't see any fuel leaks because it's on the suction side.

On the 002 / 003 you have an external fuel lever assembly, not an internal rack, therefore when the machine begins to die if you manually push up on the linkage coming off the pump and the engine revs back up, that would eliminate a fuel supply issue and point towards a governor control issue.

 

[Scoobyshep]

2 check valves per pump, normally they are blow through so a weak pump shouldnt cause a stall, there is also one in line between the filter and IP. its in the hose right by the oil pressure gauge.

Not on this series of set but i did have another piece of equipment where a check valve failed so bad it would block both directions randomly

 

[rickf]

I just watched the videos and I will tell you I have one that does the exact same thing except it does not die. It stumbles and picks up and runs great then stumbles again. I had a thread on it a couple years ago on here. I suspect the pump has been replaced and possibly the timing is off, I have not had time to get back into it. But I checked fuel by bypassing all of the filters and the tank by running the suction into a can and out to an inline filter direct to the pump. I watched the fuel return and it never faltered during these stumbles. Blue/white smoke is usually unburned fuel and could be caused by low compression or wrong timing. I will be following this closely. But does the injection pump look like it might have been changed? A little cleaner or different color dirt than the rest of the unit?

Yea Ray, I know, get my butt in gear.

 

[Guyfang]

The check valve.

 

[Chainbreaker]

I've never seen one die like that... with initially both cylinders running and then one cylinder running & other quitting & white smoke. My thoughts are perhaps it could be Injection pump timing, or... perhaps a bad injector on the failing cylinder. If a bad injector on one cylinder & its slowly dropping RPM's then the governor would request more fuel to maintain RPM thus over fueling the good cylinder until it quits? Just a thought...

 

[2Pbfeet]

View attachment 935928

Und?
What is the importance of the photo? I guess that I am missing something. Thanks!

All the best,

2Pbfeet

 

[Guyfang]

I thought I wrote, "The Check Valve" above the picture. Corrected now.

 

[2Pbfeet]

@Guyfang Thanks for helping the slow ones like me along!

All the best,

2Pbfeet

 

[Chainbreaker]

I've never seen one die like that... with initially both cylinders running and then one cylinder running & other quitting & white smoke. My thoughts are perhaps it could be Injection pump timing, or... perhaps a bad injector on the failing cylinder. If a bad injector on one cylinder & its slowly dropping RPM's then the governor would request more fuel to maintain RPM thus over fueling the good cylinder until it quits? Just a thought...

Well... I'm eating my own words now! Now I actually have seen one die like that as of today...one of my own units!!!

Got another weather alert today. We're expecting some more bad weather with the two "Bomb Cyclones" dancing together offshore in PNW with a high wind alert inland with expected power outages (over 500,000 are without power up in Washington State as of yesterday). So, I decided to fire up one of the house generators (Genset#2) for a readiness check. This was the same Genset, fairly pristine low hours unit, I used during the last outage during last winter's ice storm that took out power.

So I go out to start it & it seemed a little slow to start but since I hadn't started it for too long (last winter) it kind of stumbled a bit & then smoothed out. Then a few seconds later it starts to slow down losing RPM's & one cylinder drops out & engine then quits with white smoke! Holy cow this sounds familiar!!!

So, with all the fresh info from reading of "1Fast4's issues above" still in mind, I focused on listening to the fuel pumps. When I tried to restart it wouldn't restart. Hmmm, no clicking from fuel pumps. Got out my persuader screwdriver & tapped the plastic screwdriver end on the 2 inline fuel pumps. Suddenly I heard a faint slow click, kept tapping & then the click seemed a little louder and more frequent. Kept tapping on both & suddenly they both began a faster clicking cadence. So, then I attempted a restart & it came roaring back to life & I ran it for a good 15 minutes to get everything flowing & engine heated. Shut it down & came back out an hour later & it fired right up and ran well for another 15 minutes.

I treat all my fuel with BioBore & OptiLube XPD additives, however if fuel sits static in components for a few months & not flowing, apparently under the right conditions, it can gum up things like check valve balls, pistons in fuel pumps etc.

Anyway, lesson learned! "Exercise your gensets" at least every 90 days or more frequently (monthly) if you can!

 

[Guyfang]

Keep in mind, the E-pumps will/should come on at a good pace, as soon as they are energized. Then, because the pumped fuel will at sometime fill the system up a bit, they can slow down. But they should always be energized, therefor always pumping. The AUX pump is the only pump that actually gets "Turned off" on the gen set. Its controlled by the fuel tank float switch. So if you place the Start switch in the prime/run position, and hear no pumps, its time to start looking right there on the pumps.

 

[Ray70]

There was a time, back when I first started playing with the 002/003's that I had the "bright idea" to unplug one of the main pumps to "save" it for when needed, thinking that by leaving 1 running and 1 turned off I would extend the life of the "off" pump..... let's just say that mindset was short lived. It's better to keep things moving regularly, rather than sitting still, waiting for a problem!

 

[rickf]

Well... I'm eating my own words now! Now I actually have seen one die like that as of today...one of my own units!!!

Got another weather alert today. We're expecting some more bad weather with the two "Bomb Cyclones" dancing together offshore in PNW with a high wind alert inland with expected power outages (over 500,000 are without power up in Washington State as of yesterday). So, I decided to fire up one of the house generators (Genset#2) for a readiness check. This was the same Genset, fairly pristine low hours unit, I used during the last outage during last winter's ice storm that took out power.

So I go out to start it & it seemed a little slow to start but since I hadn't started it for too long (last winter) it kind of stumbled a bit & then smoothed out. Then a few seconds later it starts to slow down losing RPM's & one cylinder drops out & engine then quits with white smoke! Holy cow this sounds familiar!!!

So, with all the fresh info from reading of "1Fast4's issues above" still in mind, I focused on listening to the fuel pumps. When I tried to restart it wouldn't restart. Hmmm, no clicking from fuel pumps. Got out my persuader screwdriver & tapped the plastic screwdriver end on the 2 inline fuel pumps. Suddenly I heard a faint slow click, kept tapping & then the click seemed a little louder and more frequent. Kept tapping on both & suddenly they both began a faster clicking cadence. So, then I attempted a restart & it came roaring back to life & I ran it for a good 15 minutes to get everything flowing & engine heated. Shut it down & came back out an hour later & it fired right up and ran well for another 15 minutes.

I treat all my fuel with BioBore & OptiLube XPD additives, however if fuel sits static in components for a few months & not flowing, apparently under the right conditions, it can gum up things like check valve balls, pistons in fuel pumps etc.

Anyway, lesson learned! "Exercise your gensets" at least every 90 days or more frequently (monthly) if you can!

Alright, now I am going to have to pull the one of mine out that has that issue and check it. I don't think that is going to be my issue since I spent a lot of time with the pumps and running from an auxiliary can through the pumps and bypassing all of the filters and using an inline filter for testing. But, any past experience is good info.

 

[1FAST4]

I just watched the videos and I will tell you I have one that does the exact same thing except it does not die. It stumbles and picks up and runs great then stumbles again. I had a thread on it a couple years ago on here. I suspect the pump has been replaced and possibly the timing is off, I have not had time to get back into it. But I checked fuel by bypassing all of the filters and the tank by running the suction into a can and out to an inline filter direct to the pump. I watched the fuel return and it never faltered during these stumbles. Blue/white smoke is usually unburned fuel and could be caused by low compression or wrong timing. I will be following this closely. But does the injection pump look like it might have been changed? A little cleaner or different color dirt than the rest of the unit?

Yea Ray, I know, get my butt in gear.

The IP has not been changed, at least not by me. I got the unit from GL in 2012 with 248 hrs shown (it now shows 363.9 hrs) and the first thing I did was clean and flush the fuel tank, the fuel lines and drained and added fresh oil...the only thing I've changed was adding "spin-on" oil and fuel filters. I have PM'd the unit per the TM and until this recent issue(s), the unit has always started and ran like a champ.

 

[1FAST4]

Well... I'm eating my own words now! Now I actually have seen one die like that as of today...one of my own units!!!

Got another weather alert today. We're expecting some more bad weather with the two "Bomb Cyclones" dancing together offshore in PNW with a high wind alert inland with expected power outages (over 500,000 are without power up in Washington State as of yesterday). So, I decided to fire up one of the house generators (Genset#2) for a readiness check. This was the same Genset, fairly pristine low hours unit, I used during the last outage during last winter's ice storm that took out power.

So I go out to start it & it seemed a little slow to start but since I hadn't started it for too long (last winter) it kind of stumbled a bit & then smoothed out. Then a few seconds later it starts to slow down losing RPM's & one cylinder drops out & engine then quits with white smoke! Holy cow this sounds familiar!!!

So, with all the fresh info from reading of "1Fast4's issues above" still in mind, I focused on listening to the fuel pumps. When I tried to restart it wouldn't restart. Hmmm, no clicking from fuel pumps. Got out my persuader screwdriver & tapped the plastic screwdriver end on the 2 inline fuel pumps. Suddenly I heard a faint slow click, kept tapping & then the click seemed a little louder and more frequent. Kept tapping on both & suddenly they both began a faster clicking cadence. So, then I attempted a restart & it came roaring back to life & I ran it for a good 15 minutes to get everything flowing & engine heated. Shut it down & came back out an hour later & it fired right up and ran well for another 15 minutes.

I treat all my fuel with BioBore & OptiLube XPD additives, however if fuel sits static in components for a few months & not flowing, apparently under the right conditions, it can gum up things like check valve balls, pistons in fuel pumps etc.

Anyway, lesson learned! "Exercise your gensets" at least every 90 days or more frequently (monthly) if you can!

On the one hand I'm sorry to hear you were experiencing the same (exact) issue I'm having but on the other hand I'm kind of glad because you found an easy solution, at least for you, and a simply step for me to try. I'm still thinking mine is some sort of blockage in the fuel system so that where I'll start...as soon as we get a break in the weather.

Thanks for the info!!!!

I will keep you all updated on my progress.

 

[Guyfang]

Two question...
What "wonder fluid" would you recommend for soaking? Any fluid that will take off the diesel Lacquer. Any i would recommend, would have to be ordered from Germany. Might not be cost effective.
I see 3 check valves between the Fuel Tank and the IP, is that all of them? There is only one check valve.