hydraulic clutch pump or ford super pump?

[Csm Davis]

what do they have on the m35a3? copy that system would seem the way to go. just my two bits

 

[res0wc18]

Have you looked at where you're going to mount the pump and belt routing? A PTO driven pump would cost more if you bought a new pump but used pumps can be found very reasonable that are under old dump trucks. I'm going to run a pump off a t-case PTO to power my dump. I got the pump with the hoist that came from a old dump truck.

Yes i have measured a few things, but i need to actually put a represented item with the actually size of the pump in there though.

Have not looked into the old dump truck stuff because im not sure how that all works finding out the correct one for our pto box? Are they all the same? that couldn't be that easy...

One the stock lds pump does anyone know what psi and volume they flow?

its either this or a big belt driven power steering pump off of a bigger truck or something.

I was in touch with mile marker today. This is what they said. Im waiting to hear back on some more questions.


"Maximum psi on our motor is 1500psi
Maximum GPM on our motor using our set up with the HI and the H (or 75 and 70 series) winch is 5gpm.
If you are using bigger hoses than we supply then it is 7gpm
If you are using a 70 series without our valve and with bigger hose then the max GPM is 15"

Kenrick Perkins
Warranty Dept.
954-782-0604
KENRICK@MILEMARKER.COM



It appears that i am am going to have to contact our old mates in England, they have their type r winch over there and they are running much higher than what this guy is telling me.


So are relief valves different from pressure reducers then or? If i use the clutch pump or similar system i would need something inline to limit the pressure to around 1500 psi and still get flow to the winch. What about the GPM side of the equation? If i use a 70 series winch with bigger hoses and a different spool valve type setup than i can push 1500 psi and 15gpm through it. That winch would really fly!

In talking with him though he was talking to me about their h18k winch and how i should consider that. But is there other places i can buy a winch that is made in the USA with the 18k rating for around 2000 bucks?

 

[m16ty]

Are you dead set on a hyd winch? if not you can get into a PTO winch alot cheaper than what you are talking about. Factory PTO winches go for around $1,000 for everything needed to make it work. Hyd would be more user friendly though. I think you could also get a deuce winch and connect a hyd motor cheaper than the Milemarker. There would be no fabbing mount brackets that way.

If you want to go with a PTO pump you will need a trans PTO with rear output (PTO can be found for around $300-$400 and rear output adds another $250 or so) or go with a transfer case PTO (which runs about $500 but they can be found much cheaper if you shop around). Most pumps off old dumptrucks will work. The only ones that won't work is some newer trucks have the pump mounted directly to the PTO. All others are connected to the PTO by a driveshaft which will work on either of the deuce PTOs.

 

[m16ty]

One more thing . Some pumps have relief valves built in and others do not. Most are adjustable but some you have to change the spring to change them. The relief valve is what will control your max operating pressure.

 

[res0wc18]

i really want a hydraulic winch for the finese and one man operating.

what do they have on the m35a3? copy that system would seem the way to go. just my two bits

Im not sure how the a3's are setup, any one?

isnt the stock duece winch only 10k pounds?

 

[m16ty]

i really want a hydraulic winch for the finese and one man operating.



Im not sure how the a3's are setup, any one?

isnt the stock duece winch only 10k pounds?

Can't argue with you on the ease of operation with hyd. I was just letting you know your options.

Don't know much about the A3 other than it is the A2 winch with a hyd motor installed.

Yes, the stock winch is rated 10,000 but is more than capable. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples when comparing winches. I don't know how the Mile Marker hyd winches are rated but the 10,000 PTO deuce winch will outpull a 15,000 electric any day of the week. The PTO winches and electric winches are rated different. I don't know about the MM hyd winch.

 

[mudguppy]

winches are usually rated by maximum line pull, which if it is a variable pull type winch, would be the first layer (on the drum) of line. constant pull winches (like the M88A2 main winch) are a different animal.

anyway, so an electric winch like a Warn or (i'm assuming) a hydraulic like the MM is rated at the first layer of line. however, based on recent destructive testing of the winch shear pins by a SS member, it would appear that the 10k# rating still was not met even at the top layer (5th?) of line - something like 13k# was calculated. so the deuce winch is either conservatively rated for top layer, aka minimum pulling force, or is completely under-rated because the 1st layer on the drum would pull well over 20k#.

now, speaking of hydraulic conversion, i also am planning to convert my PTO winch to hydraulic. my reason will likely be out of necessity: when i do the repower, motor mounts will likely interfere with the PTO winch shaft. being an engineer but w/ limited hydraulic experience, i've already spec'd some parts that i believe will work.

however, just the other day (coincidentally), i sent the specs and requirements to an actual hydraulics specialist (who has a lot of professional experience designing hydro winch and drive systems) to review and make recommendations. i will post findings when i hear back from him as well as part numbers that i intend to buy.

 

[res0wc18]

Heard back from mile marker this morning

heres my questions in response to the already above posted questions
"so im not following you on this one. Im in touch with a friend in england that has one of your type r winches and he is running the same type of setup i wish to.

is the max psi because of the restricotor orfice and limits of the hi solenoid?

if there is more gpm flow the winch will run faster correct?

so if i run the 70 series winch with a spool valve then that would be the fastest winch setup besides the type r?"


Heres his response

No, the maximum psi is due to the winch itself. Stall load is based on the amount of psi to the winch. So a 9000lbs winch will stall at 1450psi at about 9100lbs because that is all a typical power steering pump can supply. Now if it was to get more psi than 1500, 2 things would happen, you could brake the winch hosing and more then 1500lbs would blow the seals in the motor. Now if you pull less then rated load on this winch you would never see his happen to your winch, but if your load keeps going high than the rated load you could end up hurting the winch and the motor and would not be covered by warranty.
If there is more then 3.5gpm, the winch will run faster. But the out winches at supplied with a jci6 size hose, which means if you pump more then 5gpm through it your fluid with start to get really hot. With all hydraulic fluid, they work best if you can keep It to as close to room temp as possible.

The valve we supple with the winch can work up to a maximum of 7gpm, go higher then that and you could destroy the valve, but the motor can take up to 15gpm.

Remember this, psi = stall load GPM = line speed.

Kenrick Perkins
Warranty Dept.
954-782-0604
KENRICK@MILEMARKER.COM

 

[res0wc18]

Just got word from Some of the major surplus company's.

They want 2400 bucks for the PTO and hydraulic pump setup


Here is a good site with some cool info and pics of how hydraulics work http://www.northernhydraulics.net/ws/aboutus3.php?page_id=3655

 

[res0wc18]

man i have been running some calculations and i am throwing around some sweet ideas. If they get 5.65fpm at full pull at 1500 psi and 3.5gpm, then i can assume that if i run it at 15gpm and use the .138 factor of rpm vs fpm that gives me 24.55 feet per minute!

 

[res0wc18]

Got word back from multiple Electric over hydraulic companys like the ones that come with the 1200 dollar dump kits.
This is what they had to say

At 1500 psi, you will be drawing 120 amps using our standard 24vdc motor and our largest displacement pump. You would be able to run this continuous for around 4 minutes before the motor should be allowed to cool to ambient temperature. The S3 would be around 15%.

i asked what the flow would be

It's a little better at 24vdc, but not much. 2.1-2.5 gpm

 

[res0wc18]

Got another email from Mile Marker

I asked them if my math for speed in Feet Per Minute was correct
Heres what they said.

Yes, but 24fpm sounds slow if you are walking, but pulling 9000 or 12000lbs at that speed is dangerous.

What does the stock winch pull for speed at full load?

 

[mudguppy]

i haven't done the math, but here's everything you need to do it:

speed is not dependant upon load, only engine speed

hi-gear on the winch PTO is 1.5 the engine speed (1000rpm engine = 1500rpm PTO shaft)
lo-gear is 2/3rd's the engine speed (1000 = 667 shaft)

worm reduction is 23(?) to 1.... 667rpm shaft = 29rpm winch drum

winch drum is 5" diameter / 2.5" radius; plus, depending on what layer of line, add 1/2" to the radius for every layer after the first.... 5 layers max?

that should be everything you need to figure fpm.


get back to us...... i'm interested, and i'd be curious what it is at different rpms + hi-gear...

 

[res0wc18]

so with my rough estimates as i rounded everything.

With the stock deuce winch

Low gear on the first layer would be 39 Feet Per Minute (assuming 1000 engine rpm)
High gear on the first layer would be 89 Feet Per Minute (assuming 1000 engine rpm)

Of course that is kind of pointless as it cant go very long on one layer but it gives you an idea of how fast PTO winches really are, They are not nearly the reduction that the mile marker is of course.

 

[res0wc18]

Here is a good set of info on determining pto needs http://www.munciepower.com/images/ProductDocuments/TR/TR-G94-01.pdf

 

[mudguppy]

yep - that's where i've been getting my info. from there, i already have my PTO's selected depending on which trans i go w/. it's a cool site.

 

[res0wc18]

I got mine out of my head, but then when i went to find some of the hp equivalencies i found that place.

Do those speeds sound right? It has been many years since i had a stock duece winch

 

[res0wc18]

found a guy locally that has some dump hoist kits that are in used but great condition. Does any one know where SR71BLACKBIRD has been lately i have a bunch of questions for him about his m105 dt since its exatcly the same as what i am using.

 

[mudguppy]

ok, so the hydraulics expert has gotten back with me and verified some really good information.



first, based on gringeltaube's destructive testing and winch calculations, i gave minimum (conservative) criteria as this:

• minimum line pull performance of 20,000 1st layer / 10,000 5th layer
• torque value input cannot exceed 275 ft-lbs (similar to shear pin)
• approximate line speed of 30 fpm
• Engine rpm for winching ops 1000 - 1800 rpm
• PTO that pump will mount to (for nv4500 trans) is 99% engine rpm
• PTO rated for 175 ft-lbs / 33 hp - cannot exceed these ratings

i selected a pump (unsure of CW / CCW until PTO selected) and motor combo and nailed it the first go around (dumb luck); but, he came back to me with a lot more information to get the system dialed in perfectly:

• torque at shaft input: 241 ft-lb
• GPM at max line pull: 11.1 (22 GPM @ half)
• pressure at max line pull: 2150 psi (1075psi @ half)
• max PTO torque: 111 ft-lb
• max PTO HP: 16.3 (13.9 hyd HP)
• minimum hose diameter: 3/4"
• 30fpm = engine rpm @ 1555 (1st layer) / 780 (5th layer)

so, he has verified several things for my system:

• winching capacity vs PTO can be maintained
• winching performance (speeds) vs PTO can be matched (up to 1800 rpm @ engine)
• PTO ratings will not be exceeded

furthermore, i know that my lines must be at least 3/4" and valves must have 3/4" (or better) working ports to maintain acceptable fluid velocities. also, i can dial in my pressure relief to 2200 psi and not need to worry about using shear pins or breaking the winch.

i have the spreadsheet and can perform similar calculations using different pumps and motors and PTO speeds, i think.

so, now i can go shopping. of course, non of this can go on until i perform the engine / trans swap, but i can at least start gathering parts.

hope this helps someone.

 

[res0wc18]

wow you went way further in depth than i did, good job