Second Gear

[Jake0147]

What I need to know is do you have a problem getting in second gear sitting still at a stop.

Before I throw my two cents in... The original question:

Yes, it is normal SOMETIMES for a transmission not to take a gear when you're at a stop. Particular a synchronized gear, but any gear really. You are trying to slide a splined collar (or some other arrangement to a similar effect) to "lock" two separate male splines together within a female splined collar. If the high spots are all lined up, it won't go.
With car and light truck transmissions, it is almost never an issue. Even with the clutch pedal down, just the air drag around the clutch plate is enough to keep the disk moving slightly, so if it's not just so, it'll pop right in in a split second that you won't even notice.
In heavier transmissions with bigger clutches, it is not uncommon to find a disk that comes to a stop very quickly IF the clutch releases enough. It is also not uncommon to find one that has an input spline sticking in the disk, a previously abused disk that still works fine, or other clutch malady that means it never really stops on it's own. (Because you can grab first gear, I doubt the latter).
So assuming the former (a stopped transmission) one quick solution is to place the shift lever in neutral, release the clutch pedal, depress the clutch pedal again, and quickly, while the input shaft is still turning, move the shift lever back into second gear. This way the synchronizer has some movement to work with, so it can synchronize (match speed and line up) the gears as it should. This is very effective with servicable transmission that has some of the "sharp" worn off the end of the splines that are to engage. The less of a point they have, the more likely it is that you will find a point where they will not engage correctly.

As for starting in second gear...
Second gear can handle all of the torque that the engine can provide. It is a weak design with the key instead of a spline, but it can hold back the engine. That is not an issue. If your clutch chatters, now we're talking about shock load, and that's another issue. But smooth application of power won't bother it.
As for the clutch, the disk that these trucks should be equipped with (and there ARE alternative bolt ins that members here have used)..., but the original clutch is not like a car or light truck clutch. They are not designed to withstand slipping. The rule of thumb is that in any given situation you need to be able to roll your foot conficently off of the clutch WITHOUT applying throttle until the clutch is released. Otherwise, you are in too high of a gear. Yes, you can start in higher gears than first, but it requires throttle input, which means that you are dissipating copious amounts of energy through the friction faces of that clutch, even if you keep the RPMs down while applying throttle. (The way you would use the organic disk in a car or pickup). But, it's a clutch... It's not the end of the world. This type should and can in the right hands last indefinately (admittadly it's a lost art, and few do anymore...) If you're ok with dropping one in every thirty, fifty, one hundred thousand miles, or if you're doing a job where excessive wear from overuse has an acceptable payoff for whatever is saved in time or effort... abuse it accordingly. It's just a clutch, there's lots more expensive things that will come up, and you do have to enjoy a deuce, otherwise there's no point.

There is one big hangup with the second gear start on the sprag actuated transfer case trucks, those without a manual activation for the front drive mechanism. That transfer case has a sprag (a "ratchet" of sorts) that eliminates driveline binding while you're driving, yet hooks in right when you need traction. These transfer cases have a forward and reverse position in high or low range, and that is activated (passively) by your gear selection in the main transmission. You can work the valves to keep it in the right place, however one slip in setting the valves and the mechanism that should prevent driveline binding actually causes (forces) driveline binding by locking the front and wheels together with a (slightly) different drive ratio. So while it can be done, it's kind of like parking a vehicle with an automatic transmission. You don't use park only when it might roll away and neutral the rest of the time, you take the extra expendature of energy and move the lever further than it has to go because it always works right. So in the case of a sprag transfer equipped truck, I would change my recommendation and say that it's worth you time to master the (gentle) release of the transmission from first gear so that second can be selected promptly. It is different (it actuates very differently inside the transmission...), feels different, times different with your extended motions because of the "deep" position of the shift lever, but it can and in this case should be mastered to the point where it is just another gear.

 

[tm america]

the sprag type transfer case uses a rod off the first-rev shift fork rail to lock the transfer case in allwheel drive when in reverse as the sprag would just over run in that dirrection . the rod doesnt lock it in when in first gear the sprag funtions normally when in any of the forward gears .there are two types of sprags first is a spring and roller type that uses ramps for the rollers to go up to lock it in. the second is a true sprag it has peanut shaped locking pawls the when rotated will lock in place .there is also a diode type that has small keyways that are spring loaded to lock into a ramped mechanism.all of these type of sprags do the same thing in the end they freewheel one way and lock up the other way. this is the reason for the rod on the trans going to the transfer case .it mechanically locks the sprag from overrunning.the only time it would cause binding due to the different ratios of the transfer case is when you are in reverse.
i agree that second gear is more than capible of handling the torque of motor on the street the only time i see possible problems is when offroad wheel hop can cause high torque loads to be applied to the driveline. but if the ground is soft enough to spin the tires. the ground is probably soft enough to not hurt second gear

 

[emr]

rat4spd U are a gentleman. stumps u and I drive alot alike.OPCOM, I think the deuce trans is so well not up to what the truck is i agree totaly, It should be so low and it is not, Like they built a low down and dirty truck and then wanted road speed or something,or just blew it. i can not get it, if one has little or no deuce experience and wants to show off pulling something, they will hop all over the place, now my 813 is the opposite, and I love it, tm america u are experienced and love your posts. I am a different driver than U, but look foward to a day we can get into the mud, would be worth the trip...

 

[m-35tom]

well i guess you guys will agrue this for the rest of the year............. funny that i can start out in 2nd with NO throttle and then apply it after the clutch is fully engaged!! and i can tell you that the syncro dogs of some 2nd gears are made flat from new and will not engage stopped OR after spinning the counter shaft. only with some pressure and just letting the disk touch the flywheel will they slide in. this is completely normal. 1st gear is for starting the truck rolling with a LOAD. with a load it will continue to roll until you can get it into 2nd. many it not most people have used deuces, mine is new with just 6000 miles on it so i think it probably behaves like one should. many miles and many operators cause all kinds of issues and you may have to operate yours to compensate for this. that does not make it the only way. is the 3053 a weak transmission? well you can break anything if you try hard enough. these trans were originaly rated for 300 ft lb of torque. of course the multifuel is 35% more than that, but ratings in the early 50's were VERY conservative. mud and hill people put this trans behind hotted up big block chevys and don't break them so i guess it is not that weak in reality.


tom

 

[tm america]

ya that worlds fastest diesel powered pickup uses the 3053 to. and doesnt break it. there are several different ways to drive these trucks. the opperators manual says always start in first .but alot of guys start in second for years with no problem . i would love to see some dyno sheets on the multifuel . for some reason the numbers seem really low. i know those are ratings of what the truck can take all day every day but i still dont beleive it .a t-5 from a mustang is rated up to 265 hp and 300ft lbs of torque how could a deuce trans be rated the same .as the gears on the 3053 are twice the size of the t-5i wish someone had a chassis dyno around here that could handle a deuce i would dyno my truck in a second

 

[rat4spd]

a t-5 from a mustang is rated up to 265 hp and 300ft lbs of torque how could a deuce trans be rated the same .as the gears on the 3053 are twice the size of the t-5i wish someone had a chassis dyno around here that could handle a deuce i would dyno my truck in a second

It's not the input torque that kills it. It's the torque multiplication all the way through the driveline coupled with trying to overcome inertia.

I built a wicked 396 in my El Camino. It had an M-20 tranny. I sidestepped that thing so many times at 5000 rpm it wasn't even funny. Most of the time I got rewarded with tire frying. But on the two occasions I drove my slicks and got a good hard bite, the output shaft refused to turn and the result was all of the teeth removed from first gear.

That's why if you use the deuce tranny in a light vehicle it's bullet proof, because it is when you aren't trying to move 13,000#'s.

 

[m-35tom]

patrick,
when you are in 2nd gear, that gear is locked to the shaft and does not need any oil. 2nd gear seizure is from to high a speed in 5th. none of the gears have needle brngs.

you don't slip the clutch, you just engage it quickly with no or almost no throttle. if you cannot do this because of engine performance, the ip droop setting may just be too low to take the load.

i have already commented on the weakness myth.

abrupt high power loads in 1st may put more lateral stress on the mainshaft than any other gear as in that gear 1st is almost at the center of the shaft.

just so you know...........

 

[tm america]

i think we need to come up with a way to get higher gear ratios to go with the bigger tires.that way you could start off in second and never have to worry about it ..it could be done with different input gears on the trans . if someone wanted to make them to add to his awsome od gears he has avilable for these trucks . i would be interested in a set shoot if you dropped the input ratio then added the higher fifth you would have a set up that is nothing short of mind blowing

 

[Billy Bobbed]

Another thing I found out about my tranny is. When I have the engine running with the clutch in. When I go from 4th to 5th gear sitting still wait about 3 sec,I cant get it out of 5th gear.I have to let out on the clutch a little and apply the cluch again.Its only 5th gear only.It does it every time. Might just be my tranny only.I found this out seeing if the tranny was going in all the gears right.

 

[DUG]

rat4spd U are a gentleman.

LOL, I guess you don't really know him!

Wow, my lil bro is a "gentleman".

BTW - I ALWAYS use 1st. Just cuz I like to shift.

 

[rat4spd]

LOL, I guess you don't really know him!

Wow, my lil bro is a "gentleman".

BTW - I ALWAYS use 1st. Just cuz I like to shift.

Well, I am an officer now, and that movie wasn't called "An officer and a gentleman" for nothing.

 

[rflegal]

Look at the manuals. Take one of these apart, I have, its laying on my bench. There are two woodruff keys locking the 2/3 sychro sleeve to the mainshaft vs. 15 splines for first gear. As an registered engineer, I can tell you they are not the same in terms of load capacity. As the owner of an M36 with sheared keys from the PO, I can tell you, once fixed, I won't be pulling out in 2nd.
Ask Travis (Digitaldust) how many of the used trannys he has that have damaged keys, keyways, sleeves or mainshafts on the 2/3 synchro sleeve...all of them. Second gear can't take the same shock and inertia loads as first. Simply consider the area available for load transfer between the splines versus the keys, there's no comparison, even considering the different effective torque arms due to the different gear ratios.
I understand, unloaded on the street, cruising around many may not see a problem. But what happens when you forget and do the same ol' same ol' with a load?
Some say trannys are NBD and can be had easy for repair . But good used mainshafts seem to be rare (anyone got one, me and Travis are still lookin'). New are $200 to $280, plus you still need keys and a sleeve. Buy a used tranny, pay big$ to ship and find out its mainshaft is toast too, no thanks. I think if you're starting out in second all the time, you're living on borrowed time on your 2/3. Just my 2 cents. I won't be doin' it.

(If some one wants to see the math, I'll go dig out my old mech eng gear texts and put it together, but my bet is even with the difference in gear dia., first gear still has greater than a 5:1 safety factor over 2nd in terms of torque transfer capacity.)

 

[rat4spd]

I understand, unloaded on the street, cruising around many may not see a problem. But what happens when you forget and do the same ol' same ol' with a load?

Then if the keys shear, they deserved it, end of story.

I think if you're starting out in second all the time, you're living on borrowed time on your 2/3. Just my 2 cents. I won't be doin' it.

Maybe so, however, I assume responsibility for my vehicles, so I'm not too worried if everyone is overly concerned for the safety of my second gear.

(If some one wants to see the math, I'll go dig out my old mech eng gear texts and put it together, but my bet is even with the difference in gear dia., first gear still has greater than a 5:1 safety factor over 2nd in terms of torque transfer capacity.)

I'm more concerned, if you want to put forth the effort, of what the comparison is between the load on second in a 13,000# truck as opposed to the load on second in a 23000# truck.

And frankly, can anyone here, please, ANYONE.......show me some statistical evidence that ALL of the sheared key on the second gear have resulted from people that drive off in second gear? How many have sheared from a rough shift into second on a loaded truck, or a rough second gear shift on an unloaded truck?

It's an easy excuse to say all sheared keys are the result from people using second gear to start out in. However, I'll still do it, because I can. If it bothers people, so be it.

 

[m-35tom]

i have talked with people i know who rebuild this transmission. they (we) have a cumulative experiance of approx 100 years, and non of us have ever seen or heard of the keys shearing until last year and just on this forum. i have to wonder if all the trans travis sees come from the same place and they broke them on purpose.

$200 for a mainshaft is a bargain, i have almost 90 in stock and they are $150 plus shipping. all parts for this trans are cheap because they are mil surplus and fairly easy to find, but a good used trans is still your best bang for the buck.

tom

 

[stumps]

I'm more concerned, if you want to put forth the effort, of what the comparison is between the load on second in a 13,000# truck as opposed to the load on second in a 23000# truck.

That's an easy one, but you have to set some conditions, like do you keep the acceleration constant, or do you keep the force (torque) constant. The equation of interest is:

Force = mass x acceleration

If you keep the acceleration constant, the force required to make a fully loaded truck take off as fast as an empty truck is 23000/13000 times the force required to accelerate the empty truck. Which is 1.77 times.

But guess what? Since we are all lead footed, and the truck has a small engine, the truck most likely won't have the torque necessary to keep the acceleration constant fully loaded vs unloaded. Since the engine torque determines how much force you can apply to accelerate the truck in a given gear, you are going to find that the force you take off with fully loaded is almost exactly the same as the force you take off with empty, and the acceleration will be reduced by 13000/23000 times.

-Chuck

 

[73X]

Ok here goes the rant. I will continue to use second as I have, if it breaks I will fix it. The most beautiful thing about this country is we all have the freedom to do as we see fit. Yes the manual calls for first gear starts but the authors of the manual have to take into account all variables that may arise. This is my personal truck and I control what happens and where it happens.
This thread can be appreciated for the original question but all that is happening is we are re-hashing opinions and personal bias.
We use our trucks and modify our trucks well outside of what the intended purpose was so if someone wants to start in second gear let them.
Offering help or advice is one thing beating a dead horse is another.
End of rant.

 

[rat4spd]

That's an easy one, but you have to set some conditions, like do you keep the acceleration constant, or do you keep the force (torque) constant. The equation of interest is:

Force = mass x acceleration

If you keep the acceleration constant, the force required to make a fully loaded truck take off as fast as an empty truck is 23000/13000 times the force required to accelerate the empty truck. Which is 1.77 times.

But guess what? Since we are all lead footed, and the truck has a small engine, the truck most likely won't have the torque necessary to keep the acceleration constant fully loaded vs unloaded. Since the engine torque determines how much force you can apply to accelerate the truck in a given gear, you are going to find that the force you take off with fully loaded is almost exactly the same as the force you take off with empty, and the acceleration will be reduced by 13000/23000 times.

-Chuck

I don't mean both from a stop. What is the comparison of the stress on second gear from a stop in a 13,000# truck comparerd to a second gear shift in a loaded 23,000# truck at several MPH?

 

[stumps]

I don't mean both from a stop. What is the comparison of the stress on second gear from a stop in a 13,000# truck comparerd to a second gear shift in a loaded 23,000# truck at several MPH?

First, the physics of accelerating a truck from zero to 2 MPH in 3 seconds is no different than going from 2MPH to 4MPH in 3 seconds, or 100MPH to 102MPH in 3 seconds. Speed is relative.... it is all F = MA Notice that F = MA doesn't mention speed.

In a manual transmission what is different is how far off the engine RPM's are from the RPM's necessary for a particular ground speed in the gear you are in. When you start of with zero ground speed, you need a special torque converter to couple your engine RPM to the 0 RPM your transmission is turning.

The clutch is a fantastic torque converter. It is capable of coupling the vast amounts of torque from the engine at high RPMS to the much lower RPMS of the transmission.

If you ever wonder what can happen, think back to your early days as a teenage male driving a stick car for the first time. You just had to spin your wheels to impress yourself, and hopefully the babes. Even your little Toyota 4 cylinder engine could do it if you rev'd it up, and slipped the clutch. That simple act was putting tremendous amounts of torque into your transmission and drive train, .. at the cost of clutch life, and broken parts.

Fast forward to your dotterage, and your new stud machine the deuce. When you start in second gear, and rev the engine and slip the clutch to make it start away, you are repeating the same game you played as a wet behind the ears kid driving daddy's car. And you can break things.

-Chuck

 

[mudguppy]

I don't mean both from a stop. What is the comparison of the stress on second gear from a stop in a 13,000# truck comparerd to a second gear shift in a loaded 23,000# truck at several MPH?

that's something that you can't measure, whether rolling or stopped. any gear is only going to see the maximum torque that the engine is putting out when the clutch is engaged.

however, getting the clutch engaged is the infinite variability. as was already mentioned on this thread several times, torque spikes are what's going to lead to sheared keys in second, or pretty much any other transmission damage. those torque spikes are from chattering clutches, clutch 'dumping', missed shifting, gear jamming, and other poor driving techniques or conditions.

letting a [good condition] clutch out at idle in 2nd until the truck is rolling and engine rpms sync'd before throttle is applied is going to put far less torque thru 2nd than it will when engaged and full-throttle is applied.

this is because of 'clutch let-out torque' - meaning how much torque does the engine produce at idle as the clutch is applied. and i've never seen an engine that produces more let-out torque than max engine torque (which the gear is going to see later...).

it really comes down to clutch condition and driver application; both have their limits in their ability to control torque spikes during start and shifting.

yet, i know this 'discussion' will go on and on.........

as for me, i use 1st. but i have 16.00's to overcome. but if there's any kind of downhill slope from where i'm starting, i'll actually start off in 2nd. however, in any, i don't apply throttle until engine rpm is sync'd.

 

[rat4spd]

Maybe I'm spoiled driving an LDS, but it takes essentially no throttle for me to start my truck in second gear.....and pretty much no clutch slippage.