Dumb newbie starter question

[TexAndy]

Background:

Got a 1009 off GL a few months ago. It has no starter. So I borrowed a friend's (broken housing) to bolt up temporarily just to test the engine.

How do I know which cables hook up to which posts on the starter? In the TM, it says "when replacing, take note of which cable goes where" (paraphrase)... unfortunately, mine didn't come with one, so I don't know how it was hooked up to begin with.

Also, there's a big thick cable with red insulation coming from the engine compartment that looks like it's supposed to come back farther (maybe one of the starter cables?) but it's cut. It looks about as thick as a battery cable.

In the TM (-20), on page 4-12, it shows one wire going to the solenoid attached to the motor and another wire going to the motor... if these are both positive, where does the ground go? Is the whole thing grounded through the housing to the engine block?

Also... how does this work with the starter relay? In the TM, the relay looks like it's in a totally different spot. Do I even need to worry about it if it's already hooked up to the wiring harness through those special connectors like it shows in the TM?

1009 is down the road about 30 miles at a friend's place, so I can't go outside and look. Any help, pictures, advice ya'll could throw at my ignorant butt would be most appreciated.

 

[markinnh]

The borrowed starter is 24v?, yes it grounds through the engine block, the large wire needs to reach the large post on the starter, so it needs to 1. reach the post, and 2. must have a ring terminal end crimped on(dont fudge this as there is alot of amps here, a mistake gets one a nickname like "Smokey" or the like. This should be done by the correct tool tp crimp on a 1/0 (one ott) lug... maybe a local truck shop?, If the cable is too short, u need a new one. Also please ensure the engine is not seized so as not to make ur buds starter into a toaster. The other wires are on the electrical print in the manual. Looks like the purple wire goes 'closest to the starter' when looking from the back of the starter, and the red wire goes further away from the starter motor body. I once knew the terminal designations but have forgotten them and i do not see them on the print. The small red wire on the solenoid is not the big red wire on the solenoid...well you prob knew that any way...Hope this helped. (Ref. TM-9-2320-289-34 E-1 Starting Circuits All (except m1010)

 

[TexAndy]

Thanks, I'll try that one.

I've been looking at 9-2320-289-20 F-3, and it just shows two wires going to "Starter Motor and Solenoid." One labeled 32 Red-1 (sgt) and the other labeled 3 PPL-6 (SXL)

 

[Warthog]

For anyone troubleshooting the electrical system need to read the first few pages of the Troubleshooting section of the -20 or -34 manuals.

It covers how to read the Electrical diagrams, what the wire sizes are and what the wire labels are.

The "32" wire is 2 gauge (large) Red wire and the "3" wire is is 12 gauge (small) purple wire.

The diagrams are in the Appendix of each manual.

The starter solenoid is on the starter and the Relay is mounted under the dash above the STE/ICE diagnostic port.

Make sure you buy the correct starter bolts , not just grade-8s and PLEASE use the starter bracket to hold up the rear of the starter. If not you will be replacing it sooner that later.

 

[TexAndy]

Wow. thanks warthog! I'll definitely print that out and study it as well.

Yeah, I bought some starter bolts of the "Help!" brand. Size is 10-1.5x 113. I test fit them and it looks like they'll secure the starter in place.

What I don't have is the 1MM spacer plate that sandwiches between the starter and the engine block. Do I need that just to turn the engine over once? Or will the gear on the starter not match up to the flywheel correctly without it?

I don't have the rear bracket either, but like I said, I just want to start the engine once to make sure it will turn over before I sink any more money into this truck. The nose cone housing on the starter is already broken so I'm not really worried about hurting it.

 

[Warthog]

What I don't have is the 1MM spacer plate that sandwiches between the starter and the engine block. Do I need that just to turn the engine over once? Or will the gear on the starter not match up to the flywheel correctly without it?

Depends on if the starter is a "shim" of "no shim". It should be stamped on the nose cone. According to the -20 manual, Sect 4-5, the '85-'87 starters didn't have the shims. It also shows how to check the pinion-to-flywheel clearance.

Of the four CUCVs I have worked on recently all of them where the no shim version.

If you need a shim, NAPA has them for a few bucks.

 

[TexAndy]

Hm. My 1009 is an 84. I'm not sure what year the 1009 the starter came off of was.

I just looked at the nose cone and couldn't see anything stamped on there about a shim. Could be on the little piece of the nose cone that's missing, tho...

Found it on NAPA anyways. I'll go ahead and order it and the rear bracket and do it all correctly from the get go.

As far as a starter cable goes, could I use a slave receptacle cable off of a deuce? It looks like the correct gauge and it's already got a ring terminal on it.


mmm... and it doesn't look like NAPA has the angle bracket...

 

[Warthog]

You can make your own support bracket or order one from GM. The part number is in the parts manual. You can do a search in the CUCV forum for "support bracket". Here is one http://www.steelsoldiers.com/cucv/42370-starter-motor-bracket.html

The NO SHIM is cast into the starter solenoid portion of the nose cone. I just pulled a starter and verified this info.

Here is an interesting Service Bulitin from Delco Remy about the NO SHIM starters.
http://www.delcoremy.com/pdfs/instruction_sheets/legacy/10511630.pdf

 

[TexAndy]

Cool, I'll look more closely on the solenoid housing.

Just called a GM dealer a half hour away and they can order the parts for me.

 

[Warthog]

Cool, I'll look more closely on the solenoid housing.

Just called a GM dealer a half hour away and they can order the parts for me.

The NO SHIM is cast in 1/4" raised letters so you can't miss it. If you don't see it you will need shims.

How much where the parts at GM? I'm thinking about ordering a couple of spares.

 

[TexAndy]

I didn't see "no shim" on there. So it probably needs it.

The GM guy is going to call me back tomorrow. I don't know about the bracket, but the shim was like 3.60something at NAPAonline. I would expect the bracket to be similar.

I didn't ask about bolts because the "Help!" brand appear to be correct. Even though you only get one short and one long in a package. So I bought two packs and have one spare short bolt.

Thanks a bunch warthog. I'll be sure to update with the price of the bracket and shim.

 

[Warthog]

Here is a pic of the NO SHIM. Since yours didn't have it use the instruction sheet and the TM instructions to properly gauge how many shims to put in.

 

[TexAndy]

What's the max number of shims I might need? 2?

 

[Warthog]

What's the max number of shims I might need? 2?

According to the Instalation Sheet from Delco Remy listed above, they say no more that 2mm. The number required would depend on how how thick they are.

The key is to put just enough in so the Starter Pinion has the correct spacing.

 

[TexAndy]

Just got off the phone with the GM guy.

The shims are discontinued but he can get them... for $18 EACH!
The bracket is still a stocked GM part and those are like $3 each.

So I'm just going to get the shims through NAPA and the bracket through GM.

 

[Warthog]

Just got off the phone with the GM guy.

The shims are discontinued but he can get them... for $18 EACH!
The bracket is still a stocked GM part and those are like $3 each.

So I'm just going to get the shims through NAPA and the bracket through GM.

Them must be some fancy shims..........


Any parts store can get the shims for a few bucks.

I will also check the bolts size for the bracket to block. It is posted somewhere in a recent post.

 

[TexAndy]

crap... I should have checked back in here.

I just bought 8 feet of 4 gauge wire (and ring terminals) instead of the called for 2 gauge.

Being that this is soley going to be for cranking and won't have current running through it all the time, do you think I could get away with 4 gauge instead of 2 gauge?

eta: correct way to measure the gap between the flywheel and the starter gear is with a feather gauge, correct?

 

[TexAndy]

well, I gave it a shot, but was unable to get the starter installed. It was just too freakin heavy and not enough room in there for me to lift it by myself.

Couple things I noticed:

The long bolts would NOT go all the way through the housing of the starter because of the knurled part. At least, I think that's what the problem is, because on the broken bolt hole, the bolt would go all the way through and sit flush, but on the intact one, the bolt get's resistance as soon as the knurled band reaches the other part of the hole.

I also noticed that this kept the bolt in the intact hole from sliding out when I turned the starter over to lift it. So maybe it's supposed to be that way and I'm supposed to gently tape the bolt into place in the starter before attempting to mate it to the engine block? Beats me.

Either way, I'm not going to be able to put the starter in, anyways, unless I can figure out some way to lift and hold the starter in place.

Oh yeah, and the HELP! brand starter bolts (the short one that comes in the package with the long one) that looked like it was supposed to be for the GM bracket? Doesn't fit the bracket. Too big. So who knows what those short starter bolts are supposed to be for...

Doesn't look like she's going anywhere anytime soon at this rate. Meh.

 

[Warthog]

I have replaced 4 or 5 heavy direct drive starters in last few months. It takes some work but can be done.

This is where the bracket helps out. Mount the bracket to the block without tightening the bolt, lift starter in place, attach the bracket to the starter then work on the main bolts, wiring, etc....

The short starter bolts from HELP are for a different application. You will have to buy 2 packages of bolts inorder to get two long ones.

The bolt to mount the bracket to the block is a M8 x 1.25 x 20 metric bolt available at your hardware store.

They make a round wire gauge that can be used to check the flywheel gap.

You may be able to get by with the 4 gauge wire instead of the two but personally I wouldn't take a chance. While cranking that will create alot of heat.

 

[TexAndy]

Thanks for the info, warthog. I'll get the correct bracket bolt. Is the bolt to attach the starter to the bracket the same?

Yeah, I suppose I'll go ahead and buy some 2 gauge wire and terminals. 20-30 bucks is cheap insurance to make sure it doesn't start a fire.