New Wisconsin HMV law in effect Oct 1st.

[undysworld]

some elected official's mis-guided those that actually questioned it, appeasing us with false support to get us to drop opposition. The big thing this was done by stealth behind the back of the motoring public.

Vtwin,

I'd suggest that the bs'ing was done mostly by DOT, namely by Atty. Paul Nilsen and Carsen Frazier. From what I can determine, DOT convinced some folks that milvehs were illegal, because of DOT's previous action tossing the Pinzgauers off the road entirely. DOT scared them into believing that the best possible outcome was to herd all ex-mil vehicles into "parade" uses. Most of the collectors believed and backed DOT, which got you guys to drop your opposition. That's what led to the wide chasm between the "collectors" and the "users" of milvehs, and ultimately why Wisconsin now has two vastly different milveh laws on the books.

If I may suggest, people should be more expressing their concerns over how DOT did this, instead of what our elected officials did. DOT didn't care whether the law gave them the authority or not. They simply changed department policy and started tossing milvehs off the road. When we started fighting, and beat DOT in court, then DOT started trying to change the law. But instead of simply approaching our legislature and getting a law passed, DOT instead tried to change the law by changing Wisconsin's Administrative Code. (Unlike a statutory change, this does not require legislative passage and Gov.'s signature, but merely requires that 2 legislative committees don't oppose it!)

The big thing this was done by stealth behind the back of the motoring public.

AMEN!
It should be illegal for a Governmental Regulatory Agency (like WisDOT) to change the law via an administrative code change. If they have such a sound idea, they should be able to get a law passed. That should be the change we push for.

And FWIW, I'm afraid that the argument that milvehs were constructed better than civilian vehicles is of no interest to DOT. They simply don't care. If your truck lacks that NHTSA sticker, it's not good enough for WisDOT.

I think the government should be sued for initially selling surplus vehicles to the public for use on the roads (they came with SF-97s, didn't they?), and then making those vehicles illegal to register.

And yes, I think Mr. Nilsen, Ms. Frazier, and WisDOT Secretary Frank Busalacchi should all be cut from our budget. Behavior like theirs is unacceptable.

 

[mckeeranger]

I think the government should be sued for initially selling surplus vehicles to the public for use on the roads (they came with SF-97s, didn't they?), and then making those vehicles illegal to register.

I can see that strategy going very wrong.

What if it backfires, and instead of saying "They're right, these should be street legal" they decide to say "They're right, we shouldn't be selling these"?

Be careful what you ask for. All the trucks they're now selling could become scrap metal.

 

[vtwinpilot]

Very good history of this in one post UW. One thing I want to clairify I did not specify the fed gov as in the sf97 sales. My statement was the state of Wisconsin sold these with wisconsin titles in their state sales. So regardless of debate on the fed form, the state sold these to their buying public with clear titles (not sf97's) and the buying public paid a premium for that vehicle. I don't know about a lawsuit but this defense should go along way in swaying a judge or jury for anyone deciding to take a stand. I can see the point about the dmv misleading some official's however with the way the hearing chairman handled it and what he had been presented with I cannot help but feel he new full well what the agency had planned. He offered no more opposition than a raised eyebrow. I fully expect them to ramp up the attack before the new blood in Madison can counter punch.

 

[mckeeranger]

One thing I want to clarify I did not specify the fed gov as in the sf97 sales. My statement was the state of Wisconsin sold these with Wisconsin titles in their state sales. So regardless of debate on the fed form, the state sold these to their buying public with clear titles (not sf97's) and the buying public paid a premium for that vehicle.

Thanks for the clarification.

I think they further exhibited their hypocrisy when they exempted themselves from their own law. The state can run former MV, but the public cannot.

 

[vtwinpilot]

After re-reading the reply I got on this topic from a year ago I must admit the opportunity to push harder was made available at the very end of the letter. I'll have to dig for my response but in hindsite it looks like I could have done more for that I apologize. Sometimes I think we can get blinded a bit in frustration.

 

[chadande]

I'm happy to report that my Deuce plates and title arrived on Sat. I got #47. No calls / questions / hassles from the DMV. It took a little over 2 weeks. Mine was already titled in WI when I purchased it and had collector plates on it.

** Thanks to everybody who's hard work made this the simple process that it should have been in the first place. **

 

[T. Highway]

WOW.....I'm glad that I checked back into this site, I had no idea that this had changed. I better get the documents and pictures together so that I can send this stuff off to the DMV.

 

[DLJ]

I'm curious,does anyone know how this all got started? Who started this fiasco,what got them started? Did someone in a MV p--- a DOT person off,or were the having a slow day with nothing better to do? Anyone know??


Just wondering ,DLJ

 

[undysworld]

DLJ,

I got involved when DOT cancelled the title and registration on my Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer, Sept. 25, 2007.

DOT Atty. Nilsen told me that the problem with Pinzgauers began when a guy in Milwaukee approached DMV about a title they'd just issued on which the VIN was wrong. That issue got them looking more carefully, and surprise, they discovered that the Pinz was ex-military and did not have an FMVSS label. I've talked to the owner, and I do not believe this story.

But I am aware of a guy from Neenah who was denied title/reg. on his '43 Jeep in mid-'07. That's the first documented cancellation/denial on the grounds that it was "ex-military" and did not meet FMVSS, as per DOT's own misinterpretation of s.341.10(6), Wis. Stats. (The Jeep owner told me this tale, and I've got the letters from him to his Sen. to DOT to prove it.)

I have also heard that Wis. started denying registration for ex-mil vehicles sometime around '99 or '00 (IIRC). This was brought to the attention of a Colonel who was in charge of the sales at Ft. McCoy, who then went to WisDOT and raised **** with them. WisDOT then issued title/regs, but this may have been enough to start their fuse burning, which culminated in their actions of '07. (I heard this from the guy who talked to the Col.)

I was in a meeting when DOT's Atty. Paul Nilsen stated that DOT Exec. Asst. Chris Klein was the root of the DOT's problem with milvehs. However, Klein then told my Senator's staff that WisDOT secretary Frank Busalacchi was the instigator.

I don't know about Klein or Busalacchi, but Nilsen is a big bicycle racer. Perhaps they just have a problem with internal-combustion vehicles? Klein and Nilsen told a lobbyist that DOT had no problem with Pinzgauers. This is what he wrote:

In a nutshell, DOT wants all imported vehicles inspected, and they are using this circumstance as the opportunity to get that power. They claim to have no beef with Pinzgauers, but they want an inspection, and, even more importantly, they want to be able to require ALL imported vehicles to be inspected in the future.

Basically,

slow day with nothing better to do?

 

[BSH]

So as I understand it, MilVehs cannot be used in WI for any work - only show. If one wanted to haul a load of wood with a deuce, or put a snow plow on a Unimog, that would be a violation of laws & DOT regs. Right?

Now, with the change in the legislature, what chance is there that this can be fixed? Yes, we have to work on the deficit, get concealed carry passed, and fix some other things, but how about this?

 

[undysworld]

BSH,

Short answer: You're correct. But...

Under the terms of s. 341.266(1)(am), Wis. Stats. (passed in May, 2010), you can use certain milvehs to "work". You must license them as a "special interest" vehicle, instead of the "historic military vehicle", but then you're exempted from a payload restriction. Unfortunately, this law only covers the following vehicles, so far: Pinzgauers, Kaiser M-715 pickups, Humvees, and DUKW "Ducks". (Personally, if you can afford it, I'd like to see you hauling wood on a Duck!)

It is my hope that this list of acceptable vehicles can be expanded. This is being pursued. So far, WisDOT has been forced to expand this list to include Dodge M-880 pickups, which can now be licensed as a "light truck" by DMV. I hope this list can be expanded to also include all GMC CUCVs and all heavy trucks. DMV may not like it, but they can only apply existing laws (instead of the laws they wish existed!).

Now, with the change in the legislature, what chance is there that this can be fixed?

What can you do?? As soon as the new members of the Wis. Senate Transportation Committee are announced, you can get in contact with them and get to know them. (Assembly Transportation Committee members have already been announced.) Also get to know the Senator and Assembly Representative who represent you. Make sure they understand that these trucks are legal to "use" in all the other 49 states, and that you want/need it that way here too. When the time comes to push these officials for a vote, that is the time you can ask that they vote in your interest. (I will post links to the members of the Transportation Committees in the near future, after I verify the current list/s.)

WisDOT has been very cagey in how they approach this subject. You should rest assured that they have an agenda. With the "parade" law passed earlier this year, DMV got very nearly what they wanted (all milvehs "parade-only") So you (and we) will need to be very vigilant.

This issue is being worked on by another Wis. owner, not me. He does not wish to spend his days on the computer, so I'm trying to handle communications in his stead. He's got some irons in the fire, which I'm not commenting on, at his request. So all I can ask is that you stay tuned. I'll post what and when I can.

If you have other specific questions, feel free to pm me or post it here.

Paul

 

[stellaruthie]

Paul,thanks for keeping us posted ,your help is much apprciated.Jeff

 

[poof]

Hay Paul
keep us Wisconsinites posted

And great food by the way..last week down in Texas


J.P.

 

[paulfarber]

man that's very cool! I would appreciate it if PA would do this! A+

NO YOU DON'T. I'd take flaming pink plates over those OD ones as long as it was registered as a regular vehicle.

Sure, PA's Antique plates are a pretty blue, but you have the OPTION to tag your MV as a regular use vehicle. In WI that option was going away fast.

They lost HalfTracks, and it still does not address the IFTA rules for large or tri-axle MVs, nor does it clarify the CDL issue. So they are batting 33% on the 'big issues' for anyone who drives more than a jeep.

Not sure why WI took such a hard stance against MVs.. but something happened to stop them allowing registration, and this is the result.

PA is in a MUCH BETTER POSITION for Antique/Classic/Regular registration of MVs.

 

[OSO]

Great looking plate Todd. Will try to slip by next time I'am back there. Kevin

 

[undysworld]

Sure, PA's Antique plates are a pretty blue, but you have the OPTION to tag your MV as a regular use vehicle.

Correct.


mbarber84,

4 years ago, Wisconsinites got to license their milvehs (those over 20 yr. old) as "specialty vehicles" with a "pretty blue" plate, and it was only a one-time fee. Back then, if we wanted to, we also had the option to license them as a "truck" and haul stuff or use it for a j.o.b.

Now, thanks to the efforts of some, we can (read: must) wear an o.d. plate, but we cannot haul anything. U.S. milvehs of any age qualify, but let's face it, most milvehs are already over 20 years old. (The only exceptions to this are those milvehs covered under the "Pinzgauer's" bill, which also covers DUKW, HMMWV, and M-715 pickups, and those CUCVs which our more recent efforts are getting added, and it even allows them to be modified.)

I'll say it again. For those collectors who do nothing besides drive it to parades, congratulations. You've gained the right to o.d. plates, and to license those few U.S. milvehs which are less than 20 years old. But you gave up your rights to also "use" that milveh for any practical utility or commercial uses. That's a pretty big crimp in things, in my opinion.

I'm shocked to read that others desire such similar "benefits". Be very careful what you wish for. It is Christmas and all...

Cheers,
Paul the Grinch

 

[DavidB]

Paul you are not the grinch! And not all collectors/owners are happy with this new plate.Maybe a new DOT board will change this to a more reasonable solution .


Merry Christmas to all
DavidB

 

[Flyingvan911]

You need some military vetrans on that DOT board.

 

[BSH]

And my follow-up question, being new to living in Wisconsin, is WTF is wrong with WIS DOT?

 

[Flyingvan911]

They have power without much accountability. They can make and enforce laws/rules without anyone checking to make sure it is nessecary or proper.