HELP! New starter problem

[edpdx]

I just finished, sorta, putting in my new starter. The old one was a Direct drive. I installed a new gear Reduction starter and the correct brace.

I just finished checking all the wires and bolts. Then I went to reattach the battery. As soon as I slid the Positive (NEG still disconnected) cable over the rear battery post I got a shower of sparks and it sounded like the starter was spinning up fast. I did not want to cook any electrical parts; but I tried it again for confirmation... same thing.

When the old starter died I replaced the starter relay with the doghead relay.

What is likely the problem?

Yes 24volt battery system
Yes batteries are charged fully
Yes key if OFF position

What am I missing?
Ed

 

[DokWatson]

When the old starter died I replaced the starter relay with the doghead relay.
Ed

Gotta be a sign. Probably have some wires backwards.

 

[edpdx]

Been reading the threads here looking for possible solutions: Found this:

That's odd I picked up mine from NAPA just a couple months ago without any problem. Mine did say SME in front of the part number. Part does look the same as I remember, Doghead had mentioned in one of his posts, a discussion with someone about another relay, something about checking the relay with a multimeter to ensure certain posts weren't wired together, hopefully he'll chime in, otherwise a dig through the posts might turn that up for you.

The relay I used resembled the one recommended from NAPA. I think I got it off ebay. The yellow statement above... does this refer to a possible bridge in the circuit between the Larger purple and red wires?

I need to figure out why the starter starts turning as soon as I try to reconnect the POS wire coming of the rear battery. Someone please throw me a bone on this.

 

[Warthog]

When you reinstalled the starter, did you possibly ground out one of the wires?

You can remove the red wire from the starter relay and try hooking up the battery cables again.

 

[Warthog]

.............The relay I used resembled the one recommended from NAPA. I think I got it off ebay.

Do you own a voltmeter?

Check your "new" relay and make sure the mounting bracket isn't used to ground the relay. If it is then the relay will energize as soon as the batteries are reconnected and fire up the starter.

Just because the relay resembles the NAPA one doesn't mean it is the same.

 

[Barrman]

The big post touching the small post on the starter will cause it to spin. It is real easy to have one of the wires on a post move and touch the other wires on other post while tightening the nuts down.

That would be my complete answer if you hadn't done the relay swap. Since the relay could be wired up wrong, the relay could be defective or the relay could be the wrong kind. The complete answer gets tougher.

I would suggest removing the big red and big purple wires from the relay. With them not touching anything or each other. Hook up the batteries again. If the starter spins, the problem is probably what I wrote about in the first paragraph.

If the starter does nothing. Get a big wire or best of all, one of those remote starter buttons. With the batteries hooked up, connect the big purple and big red wires. The starter should spin when you do.

Now, unhook the small black wire and the small purple with white stripe wire from the relay and put the big wires back on in the spot they should go. Hook the batteries back up and see what happens. Starter spinning means you have a bad relay or the wrong relay.

Nothing happening means you need to check the small purple/white wire for constant 12 volts with the key off. Because your 12v ignition switch on the steering column could be stuck on start.


Hope this helps.

 

[edpdx]

Warthog,
Yep I have a volt meter. I tested the relay withou anything hooked up. The two smaller posts are continuous with each other- neither post is grounded to the mounting plate. Are these two post supposed to have continuity? Does the NAPA part have this?

Barrman, Thanks for the logical troubleshooting. I'm posting now just as I see your post. I am going back out and testing as you've instructed. I guess it could be that I allowed an inadvertent connection of the two wires on the solenoid- It took forever to align the Positive cable and get the tangs to fit onto the solenoid- honestly, I never even bothered to check if they were touching. Serves me right- now I have to jack it back up and get an eye on it.

More testing, I'll let you know.

 

[chevymike]

When I did my DD starter to GR starter (and moved to 12v), I had to trim off the tab on the red wire that connects to the starter. It is in the wrong location and would be very close to the soleniod before I even got it tightened down. My guess is this tab is hitting the soleniod power and hence turning the starter on.

 

[edpdx]

I was sitting in my Blazer a few minutes ago reminding myself to lon on and thank you all for your insights. The battery cable at the solenoid was not touching the other wire- it was just touching the grounding strap. I pulled it off and ground the terminals as per chevymikes hint. I was out just before that and picked up the correct NAPA relay. I got that wired in and after fixing the cable I tried to start her up. It cranked over and I was all smiles. I shut it down to tuck the relay away. When I went to start it again to move it in the driveway. It cranked twice and then on the third try all I heard was the relay. No engine crank. I did catch a whiff of an electrical insulation burn (from under the dash?) Arrrghhhh!

What could be burning up... besides me? I was so stoked that I finally got her up and running. is there a fuse or fusible link that would go her so as not to fry a BRAND NEW starter?

 

[edpdx]

I am wondering still about the starter. Is it possible I could have fried it somehow? Still trying to figure out what fuse or Fusible links might have made the burning insulation smell.

Anyone have this NO START situation before:
Batteries fully charged
connections verified
everything tightened to spec
Lights on instrument panel work
Starter relay gives good click when ign. key turned ON
NO Crank - not sure if solenoid is clicking.

 

[Warthog]

.... is there a fuse or fusible link that would go her so as not to fry a BRAND NEW starter?

Check the red fusable link at the 24v Positve Terminal Board. It is the one that feeds the starter relay.

One way to check fusable links is by tugging on it. If it is burnt, the covering may be intact but will stretch.

 

[chevymike]

Actually I have a question, you changed over to a gear reduction starter. Did they make those in 24 volt version? Are you sure you got the right voltage? I don't recall when I was looking for replacement GR starters online, finding a 24 volt version (not that I needed one as I was going to 12 volts). Just a thought.

 

[edpdx]

Chevymike: CUCV Starter Military Equipment M1008 6.2L GM Diesel - eBay (item 280620915582 end time Feb-24-11 09:49:14 PST)

Its a 24VOLT starter.

Warthog: Thanks, on my way to check the fusible link.

In trying to isolate the problem, I removed the large PURPLE and RED wires only at the Starter Relay and attached a Bump/remote Starter between them. The relay does not click when I push the button; but I do hear the Starter solenoid CLICK. I know that the 32 RED-1 SGT wire from the POS TERM BOARD is carrying 24 volts to the starter and that connections are tight. So does this indicate a short along the big purple wire from the Starter relay to the starter solenoid?

 

[edpdx]

More testing done. It looks like I have a ground in the SOLID purple relay wire at the relay end(unconnected). I followed this wire from the Starter solenoid through the loom tube and up to the firewall opposite the FUSE BLOCK. On the other side of the firewall I am looking at the fuse block harness for the purple wire and do not see it. Does anyone know where the purple wire from the starter relay passes through the firewall?

The only other thing is that maybe the solenoid is shot and the "S" terminal is shorted to ground? Possible?

Warthog, I am not sure if there is more than one fusible link. I found one coming off the POS board- its marked FUSIBLE LINK. There are 3 other wires with black cylindrical plastic stamped 20/20/12 so I was guessing these are some kinds of fuse? The maked one tests intact. The other 3 I don't know how to check.

 

[Warthog]

With the bump starter you should have the solenoid at the starter kick in and the motor turn.

Sounds like it is time to pull the starter and have it tested. Something may have fried. Solinoid or starter

The purple w/white wire passes thru the firewall at the lower lefthand side (passenger). It is the bottom wire in the second column. I just happen to have the dash wiring harness sitting on the kitchen table as I am typing this.

The wires with the black plastic are fusable likes. That is how GM connected the fusable wire to the regular wire. They used the plastic as a sheild.

 

[edpdx]

OK I will go check the other fusible links, How can you tell if they are cooked?

The purple wire I was referring to is the solid one, not the one with the white stripe.. I have not found where it comes through the fire wall.

I think what I need to do before pulling the starter is to disconnect the purple wire at the starter solenoid and run a continuity test from end to end to be sure it is not grounding- if it is I'll cut it at the point just before it disappears into the cab at the rubber harness block. Check that length for ground. If it's bad, I'll replace that length. Then check the remaining length in the cab. It should be OK (2 grounds on the same wire, please!) If not I'll cut it where it enters the cab and check for continuity/ground. Replace and remove the old pieces.

If I can't find a short in the purple wire. Then the starter can come out and go to a rebuilder- though a new starter- shouldn't be anymore that the solenoid right?

 

[Warthog]

Sorry about the wrong wire. Teaches me to type and talk to the wife at the same time....LOL

The solid purple wire is two spots above the purple/white wire. Third one down on the second column (passenger side).

If the starter solenoid is clicking then the wire "should" be okay.

Before you cut any wires you could run a jumper wire from the solenoid to the relay , bypassing the pruple wire going thru the fire wall.

 

[edpdx]

Jumper wire first instead of cutting... duh. Thanks, you saved me a bunch of splicing partner. I gotta track down some 10g wire and get on it. Man these electrical gremlin problems are the worst... Next to bottom end engine work.

So it just occurred to me that the starter is easily tested by taking both wires off and running jumpers from the appropriate source to 1) see if the starter works. 2) Isolate which part of the solenoid may be at fault.

Gotta run to meet my son this morning; but I'm going to try finishing this this afternoon.

Ed

 

[edpdx]

I used a 10 gauge jumper to jump from the purple lead on the starter solenoid to a remote starter in the cab- the other rem. lead went to the big red lead I disconnected from the starter relay. I heard a solenoid click but no crank still.

I then removed the purple lead from the starter and hooked up a remote starter on the starter's leads. The 24v lead to the starter was attached. I heard a click and maybe even the motor of the starter trying to turn?

I did not take a shim out when the DD starter was removed. The gear reduction starter is a new 24volt unit and I am wondering if the unit needs a shim. If one is not used and the gears are snug to each other, could this be the cause of it not cranking?

 

[ratfink65]

I just finished putting that same starter in my truck. I left out the shim and it seems good to go. Starts fine no grinding.