002A Aux Fuel Setup Suggestions

[n5yzv]

I'm (slowly) going through my 002A that I've had for some time. At the moment I'm on the topic of the aux fuel setup. Other than I think my solenoid is having and issue (ie: it is allowing it to keep on pumping...and not stopping), I am trying to decide how to store the aux fuel.
I have 3x 55 Gal Green Steel drums. They have just a little rust on the top, but otherwise it great shape. I think they were used for Glycerin storage.

I plan to have this all setup stationary, not on a trailer. If I need to grab it and go, I can pretty easily pull the gen onto a trailer. But the barrels are a little different. When full, they are a pita. So, any suggestions? I also would like to plan in some way to address the "crap" that ends up in the bottom. Having 3 of these, maybe I rotate and polish? I have a 12/24v external transfer pump that I need to get hoses for, so that could also come into play. Oh, I also have the bung adapter. I want to figure out what I plan to do, before I go and order/make the fuel line, as these -5 AN fittings are not the easiest to come by.

I imagine any solution will likely involve welding. Got MIG.

Now, if the general consensus is to mount all on a trailer, then that is possible too. I have an old converted boat trailer that could be used.

Thanks!

Mark

 

[doghead]

Consider this, they burn about 1/2 gallon per hour.

So, do you really need to run nonstop for 2 weeks ever?

AN fittings are the same as JIC. They are the industrial standard in the US. They are very common(you're not looking in the right places).

 

[n5yzv]

I agree. I doubt I would need to run for long. I would like to have a longer run time than 12 hours, mainly if I need to run overnight, I wouldn't have to worry about fuel running out. I figure a 55 Gal would be a dandy supply, but more of a hassle to deal with. Which leads me to a question: what if the aux fuel source runs out? Is this damaging to the pump?

 

[Guyfang]

The electric fuel pumps are very robust. They can run all night without fuel in them, and not self destruct. I would not do that just for fun, but they can take a beating. There are several threads concerning Aux fuel storage, and several are ongoing right now. When I worked on these things in the Army, I had a fuel tank I got from an old 5 ton truck. I mounted it on a homemade trailer and could roll it around my shop. The sky's the limit. What can you afford? What can you make? What can you come up with? Do a search for the threads. Good info there.

Your solenoid might not be the problem. Could also be Fuel Level Float Switch. If it's stuck in the down position, it will tell the Solenoid to stay open. Or if the contacts are stuck, it will tell the solenoid to stay open. You need to troubleshoot the system.

 

[n5yzv]

Regarding the float switch, full tank, switch is open. If I took the reading right (as I kept finding myself placing the probes against the connector's casing), it was a dead short when less than 1/2 tank. So I want to re-test that. I also found in the TM to test the Solenoid. When it comes to testing, I like definitive tests and results that I can re-produce.
I was also considering just keeping a 55 gal with diesel in it in my shed in the rear of my lot (1/3 acre house lot). Then use a smaller 15-20 gal on a cart that I can more easily transport to the gen site, which would be next to the house. This is good in a few ways. The most is keeping the bulk of the diesel away from the structure.

 

[Guyfang]

A simple way to test the float circuit is to remove the float from the tank. Replace the canon plug, and slide the float up and down. Have the S1 in Aux position. You can hear and feel the solenoid work. DOSNT mean its working, as it can click and not open/shut. BUT, if the pump speeds up and slows down, THAT is definite.

 

[n5yzv]

Aux Fuel Pump issues

My symptom is that my aux pump, while pumps great filling up the primary tank, doesn't stop. At least I can manually fill it up from Aux.
I have measured A - B on the float switch on the tank. I have a short, when less than 1/2 full, and and open when full. So I don't think it is the float switch.

On the disconnected harness at the tank float switch, I get 24v from A-B. I have a short, when test for continuity from A - Ground and B - Ground. I think all of this is desired. (please correct me if I got any of this wrong)

How the rest of the wiring gets to the solenoid and how that actually controls the pump is where I get lost. I doubt the two wires from the float switch goes straight to the solenoid. But again, I get very lost. I have dug through the TM's trying to find a wiring diagram that makes sense to me regarding this. Any advice would be very helpful!

Thanks!

Mark
n5yzv

 

[doghead]

Please continue a thread rather than start a new one with the same issue being discussed.

This is called cross posting. It's against the rules

 

[n5yzv]

Gotcha. I started the thread with the main topic of Aux tank options, then found myself diving more into my aux pump issues and thought it would be best to start a different thread. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Bmxenbrett]

The issue with a large aux tank on a trailer is going to be adjusting your tongue weight from full aux tanks to empty. Three 55gal barrels are 1,000lbs. This is why most trailer mounted generators use a belly fuel tank thats under the generator. This distributes the weight evenly full or empty.

 

[rustystud]

Consider this, they burn about 1/2 gallon per hour.

So, do you really need to run nonstop for 2 weeks ever?

AN fittings are the same as JIC. They are the industrial standard in the US. They are very common(you're not looking in the right places).

AN and JIC will normally interchange just fine. There are a few sizes that do not interchange though. They are different in quality too. The JIC is cheaper and cheaply made compared to the AN fittings. The 5 AN fitting is becoming very rare though. My friends at "Parker" have ordered them for me in the past, but they convinced me to just go with a DOT 3/8" poly hose instead ( which is a 6 AN size) . The cost was getting too great for the 5 AN fittings. Parker in fact has stopped production on the "field repairable" fittings for now. According to them there is not enough demand to warrant a production run. Though in truth Parker seems to be getting out of the "field repairable" fittings all together.
I have had great success running DOT poly hose on all my generators. No leaks or failures of any kind. Also, the poly lines will last my lifetime and that of my son unlike the original rubber hoses the military used.
Oh, about run times. I had to run my generator for 14 days straight when we had that tremendous storm (The Hanukkah Eve windstorm of 2006) that dropped over 20 (100ft and taller Douglas Fir) trees on the Woodinville/Duvall road. We could not leave our home for 3 days. The road was completly blocked off. The power lines were totally destroyed for over half a mile. We had neighbors coming over to take showers after the fifth day. Then they started bringing over their laundry ! I called a halt to that though. My compassion only goes so far. After that most of our neighbors bought there own generators.

View attachment Scan0239.pdfView attachment Scan0240.pdf

 

[Guyfang]

My symptom is that my aux pump, while pumps great filling up the primary tank, doesn't stop. At least I can manually fill it up from Aux.
I have measured A - B on the float switch on the tank. I have a short, when less than 1/2 full, and and open when full. So I don't think it is the float switch.

On the disconnected harness at the tank float switch, I get 24v from A-B. I have a short, when test for continuity from A - Ground and B - Ground. I think all of this is desired. (please correct me if I got any of this wrong)

How the rest of the wiring gets to the solenoid and how that actually controls the pump is where I get lost. I doubt the two wires from the float switch goes straight to the solenoid. But again, I get very lost. I have dug through the TM's trying to find a wiring diagram that makes sense to me regarding this. Any advice would be very helpful!

Thanks!

Mark
n5yzv

The schematic is in both the -12 and -34 manuals. As the files have been reproduced ten million times, they can be hard to read sometimes. So I normally use the schematic out of the -34 manual, but from MEP-003A book. The quality is somewhat better. The schematics are the same for both sets.

Have you disconnected the canon plug at the solenoid and tested for voltage there? What you could do is test at the solenoid C-plug, have someone else operate the float switch, while the S1 is in AUX position. If the solenoid is stuck open, it is normally caused by lack buildup in the valve. Remove the solenoid and take it apart. Soak it in carb cleaner overnight. Most of the time that works well. Removing the solenoid is a pita. Replacing it even more so. DO use Teflon tape when reassembling. Then I would dump about a can and a half of injector cleaner into the tank, and let it set a day, before running it for several hours.

If the set sometimes is hard to start, it could be the check valve has the same problem.

 

[rustystud]

Hey Guy ! I see your up now. I'm just getting ready to go to bed. My wife has convinced me to get on a "day" schedule now that I'm retired. So no more staying up to 4:00am anymore for me. For the past 25 years I have been on a "swing shift" schedule so it has been hard trying to get my body to sleep when it knows it should be working.

 

[Zed254]

Hey Guy ! I see your up now. I'm just getting ready to go to bed. My wife has convinced me to get on a "day" schedule now that I'm retired. So no more staying up to 4:00am anymore for me. For the past 25 years I have been on a "swing shift" schedule so it has been hard trying to get my body to sleep when it knows it should be working.

A wise woman once told me "I'm retired and it's the best job I've ever had!" I retired in 2015 and couldn't agree with her more.

 

[Guyfang]

Well guys, I am going in so many directions now, I need a twin brother. Yeah, my wife has been complaining about me staying up till the cows come home. I try hard, but who wants to go to bed at 01:00? The day is young!!

My apple schnapps operation is running good at the moment. The mash is working, and I hope it doesn't "turn over" at the last second. My last apple schnapps was worth killing for! I like to let the hooch age for 5 years or so, but that stuff was so good, it just wasn't needed. Everyone kept comming over to "try a sip" and it was gone! Oh well, maybe this next batch!

 

[Guyfang]

View attachment Dok1.docx

Here is the path for the K4, (Aux Fuel) Solenoid. Everything starts from S1-17. Both the E1 electric pump, and the K4 solenoid.

 

[n5yzv]

Thanks to All. I'll do the troubleshooting items at the solenoid side next. It being open makes the most sense, since voltage seems to be getting to all the right places (ie: it pumps)(and pumps). Regarding the Aux fuel storage topic. I think I'm going to use the barrels as bulk storage. I'll always keep one free for polishing, since I have a good transfer pump. Just need to build a bracket, add some fuel filter bases/filters and hoses and that will be ready to go. I figure I'll plumb it in such a way that I can use the same pump to fill up a smaller, more portable 15 gal tank, that can be transported to the Gen as the aux fuel.
Since I'm keeping all this largely stationary, weight isn't an issue. If I do need to bug out for any reason, I'll pull the gen onto my flatbed tandem trailer, and transfer the fuel, one barrel at a time onto the trailer, keeping the weight over the axels.
After I have the aux fuel working right, I'll move on to getting the ASK cleaned up and ready to be bolted back on.

 

[n5yzv]

I'm looking at the schematic you posted. I also pulled it down from both the 003 and the 002 -34 manuals. (yes, I'm learning allot!). Looking at the circuit from the Fuel Tank Float Switch (S3) going right I have a few questions:
the ">>" or "<<" labeled as J4-B or J5-B, are connectors such as the "canon plug" Guyfang noted, and the "P63A16" is the wiring harness part number?

Also, if I follow the circuit just before CR3, I see TB4-11. I'm having a hard time figuring out what that is. I am thinking it is the Fuel Pump Capacitor. But with that, I'm also lost to where/what the Diode (CR3) is.

Thanks to all.

 

[Zed254]

I just converted a Corrosion Control Cart to a Fuel Cart. Testing went well and I had no leaks, so expect it to work when needed. Something like this may work well with your plan to shuttle fuel from the fuel storage shed to the generator. This one will hold ~33 gallons.

 

[n5yzv]

Now, that is just slick. I'll have to look around for something like that.