003a breaker trips when loaded

[DieselDr]

My 003a breaker switch trips immediately when load is applied.
Also the frequency gauge is inop. and the load gauge will jump up momentarily when the switch is turned on. The engine rpms also hickup slightly when the switch is turned on (before it trips).
The 110v out works fine and I have 240v on the output lugs.
New here and I have looked through 003a threads but haven't found anything to address this combination of problems.
Any help would be appreciated.

 

[rickf]

The fact that you say the engine "Hiccups" when you flip the breaker would tell me it is taking a full load and most likely there is a short in the wiring somewhere. That somewhere would have to be after the breaker if this is a short. Have you checked the frequency with an external meter? You have got to get that right before doing anymore testing. I am not all that familiar with the internal workings of the control box, it may be a problem in there but whatever it is keep in mind you could be dead shorting 100 amps!!

 

[rickf]

I forgot to ask if you have anything connected to the lugs? If you do disconnect the load and see if you still have the issue.

 

[rickf]

Thinking about this I want to ask the others a question. If he does not have a ground rod in and this is a dead short to the frame of the machine will it not energize the whole machine making it very dangerous to touch? I would say to be sure you have the ground rod driven in just because you could be dealing with a hot machine at some point and YOU become the ground path.

 

[Ray70]

Agree with everything above.
Sounds like a frayed wire shorting to the chassis, and yes the frame could very well become energized and be dangerous to touch.
Since this only happens with the breaker closed I would open the side of the AC reconnect box and check for mouse damage.
Then look at the wires going from the breaker up to the lugs to see if they are frayed or rubbing on anything.

 

[DieselDr]

I forgot to ask if you have anything connected to the lugs? If you do disconnect the load and see if you still have the issue.

It's fine until you turn on what ever it is you want to run. Air compressor (5hp), power hammer(5hp), etc.

 

[DieselDr]

I've had the covers off of everything and not found any frayed wires,loose/missing connections or any discolored connections or components.
Something I ran across here was the possibility of the contacts in the phase/voltage selector switch not having good contact.
I understand that they also get stuck and are difficult to free up.
Mine is on 120/240 1ph which is where I want it but will not switch to the other settings. I can rotate it ccw 90° and it springs back. I read some of you exercise this switch a few times a year to keep it freed up and contacts working. Could my problem be I'm only getting one leg of the 240 feed?

 

[Guyfang]

Take the cover off the AC output box, is what they meant.

 

[Guyfang]

You wrote:
Mine is on 120/240 1ph which is where I want it but will not switch to the other settings. I can rotate it ccw 90° and it springs back. I read some of you exercise this switch a few times a year to keep it freed up and contacts working. Could my problem be I'm only getting one leg of the 240 feed?

Disconnect the load from the terminals. Start the set. Turn on the CB1, (AC output CB) and measure at the load terminals.

Are you sure you have the load hooked up properly?

 

[rickf]

It is a possibility that the breaker could be bad. If it has been switch a few hundred times it could be weak. That was why I asked about the load, a 5 HP compressor could have a very high inrush current when it starts up. Especially if the head unloader is not working and it is starting against tank pressure. But if you are having the same problem with multiple components then I lean towards the breaker. An inductive load would give a better test of capacity than motor with a sudden starting load. How many hours on this unit?

 

[Ray70]

It's fine until you turn on what ever it is you want to run. Air compressor (5hp), power hammer(5hp), etc.

Ah, well that's not quite how I interpreted your original post.
If it's fine with no load and the breaker turned on, then frayed wires isn't the problem.
A proper operating 003 will just barely start most 5hp motors without popping the breaker, depending on how much load it present at start up.
Its not a matter of power available, it's the design of the breaker, they don't appreciate dumping heavy inductive motor loads on them suddenly.
Another possibility is that your 003 could have an 002 AC reconnect box on it.
The 002A box won't handle anything even close to 5hp, it wouldn't even start my 2hp Bridgeport without instantly popping.
Open the box and send a pic of how many wire windings are through the holes in the CT/CVT assy.
Also as stated above, exercise the AM/VM switch and the AC reconnect switch. If the AC switch gets stuck we have tips to free it up!

 

[Guyfang]

That was the reason I wanted for him to unhook the load and turn on the CB1 and take voltage readings. So lets hear about what you get, one more time, and then we can get at the rest of the problems on your set.

 

[rickf]

In post #1 he did mention he had 240 volts but did not specify on which lugs.

 

[DieselDr]

OK thanks everyone. I'll start with a little background.
I've been a heavy diesel mechanic for 40+ years, worked on everything from lawnmowers and weed eaters to cranes,draglines and bulldozers. Yes I know a lot about things mechanical but will never say I know it all.
You never should stop learning.
Now my setup is this, I have a 240/1ph line coming from my house to the lugs of the generator. There's a 50A breaker in the fuse panel in the house. I don't have a bypass switch installed yet but if power is needed I can pull the main breaker and back feed the panel for house power.
No chance of back feeding the main line.
Now ,I needed a new 240 line into the garage so I attached it to the lugs and into the garage. With the gen set off, AC disconnect switch off,the house feeds the power to garage with the lugs as a connection point.
Now I turned off the house breaker, disconnecting the generator line from the house and as a test of the generator, started it up ,turned on the AC breaker switch, then tried the 5hp power hammer motor and it trips the AC switch immediately. All this motor is doing is spinning some pulleys,no big load on it.
I didn't take any pictures of the phase switch box when I had it open to post,but will tomorrow.
And as I said before, the frequency gauge and the load gauge are at zero with the generator running no load. I know they worked several years ago as I would set the 60hz reading with the throttle.
Sorry this is so long but some explanation of the set up was needed. Thanks for any help with this.
And HAPPY FATHER'S DAY!

 

[2Pbfeet]

@DieselDr Welcome to the forum. It is always great to have a diesel expert around!

A 5HP rotary hammer can have some pretty impressive startup surges. Like an AC, they startup under a load, and the starting surge is not a trivial draw in my book. If you need to operate it on this generator, I would consider looking into a variable frequency drive (VFD) to reduce the starting current, and surge load, on the generator. A 5HP single phase motor can draw 100+ amps on starting, but the details matter. More here;

https://resources.kohler.com/power/kohler/industrial/pdf/Motor_Starting_White_Paper.pdf

As an aside, 5HP is getting pretty big for split-phase. Most motors 3HP and above for industrial use are three phase in part because they have better torque at speed, and in part because the starting currents are much lower. (I put a rotary hammer in the industrial category as it is not exactly a typical homeowner appliance)

Nevertheless, as @Ray70 and @Guyfang pointed out, it is worth checking what your wiring is inside the generator to ensure that the generator itself is ok.

All the best,

2Pbfeet

 

[rickf]

@DieselDr Welcome to the forum. It is always great to have a diesel expert around!

A 5HP rotary hammer can have some pretty impressive startup surges. Like an AC, they startup under a load, and the starting surge is not a trivial draw in my book. If you need to operate it on this generator, I would consider looking into a variable frequency drive (VFD) to reduce the starting current, and surge load, on the generator. A 5HP single phase motor can draw 100+ amps on starting, but the details matter. More here;

https://resources.kohler.com/power/kohler/industrial/pdf/Motor_Starting_White_Paper.pdf

As an aside, 5HP is getting pretty big for split-phase. Most motors 3HP and above for industrial use are three phase in part because they have better torque at speed, and in part because the starting currents are much lower. (I put a rotary hammer in the industrial category as it is not exactly a typical homeowner appliance)

Nevertheless, as @Ray70 and @Guyfang pointed out, it is worth checking what your wiring is inside the generator to ensure that the generator itself is ok.

All the best,

2Pbfeet

Keep in mind that just about all consumer level products run on single phase. I have two compressors that run 5 hp motors. I have not tried to run them on the generator and do not intend to try since if the power is out I will not be needing the extra load on the generator. The compressor I am using at this time is almost 70 years old, has a 3 hp motor on it that weighs more than my VW and has a serious draw when it comes on.

 

[DieselDr]

@DieselDr Welcome to the forum. It is always great to have a diesel expert around!

A 5HP rotary hammer can have some pretty impressive startup surges. Like an AC, they startup under a load, and the starting surge is not a trivial draw in my book. If you need to operate it on this generator, I would consider looking into a variable frequency drive (VFD) to reduce the starting current, and surge load, on the generator. A 5HP single phase motor can draw 100+ amps on starting, but the details matter. More here;

https://resources.kohler.com/power/kohler/industrial/pdf/Motor_Starting_White_Paper.pdf

As an aside, 5HP is getting pretty big for split-phase. Most motors 3HP and above for industrial use are three phase in part because they have better torque at speed, and in part because the starting currents are much lower. (I put a rotary hammer in the industrial category as it is not exactly a typical homeowner appliance)

Nevertheless, as @Ray70 and @Guyfang pointed out, it is worth checking what your wiring is inside the generator to ensure that the generator itself is ok.

All the best,

2Pbfeet

Thanks but to clarify ,It's a blacksmith forging hammer like this and it only turns some pulleys with belts on them until you engage the clutch to spin th flywheel to operate the hammer. So no real load on start up other than the inertia to spin the motor armature.

 

[2Pbfeet]

@DieselDr, thanks. Not what I assumed when I read "rotary hammer".

All the best,

2Pbfeet

 

[Scoobyshep]

First off. Ground Ground Ground.

You might just have way too much inrush. I tried a 003 with a 3 phase motor welder and it did the same thing. Load testing showed the breaker and generator to be just fine, so the inrush was the problem. If it turns out the breaker is failing, Good luck they suck to replace (just did one this past weekend) Many curses were uttered.

 

[Guyfang]

Hook up a different, smaller load. If I remember right, the engine surges when you turn the load on. That means the gen set makes power and tries to start your load. Normally the surge and shutting off of the load means the load is too big. The gen set tries to assume the load and it is exceeding the gen sets limit. I would still like to have some pictures of the inside of the AC box.