jwaller
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so did you ever find out if the 1 hole or 2 hole injectors were better and which one were supposed to have in the deuce?
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2 1/2 and 5 ton injector swap
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rmgill
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What is special about an intercooler radiator over a standard radiator? Are the openings different shapes for better flow? The ones I looked at online don't look all that different from radiators, except for their arrangement of inlets/outlets. They're also all not cheap at $1000+
jwaller
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I was reading in the TM's that the 5ton multi's are supposed to have 2 hole injectors, but would it do use 2.5's any good to use the 2 holers and are we supposed to have 1 or 2 holes?
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5-ton injectors have one hole. 2.5 ton injectors have two holes. The fuel delivery is different and so in the spray pattern, among a hos tof other things.
The 5-ton engine also has differnt pistons, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY different "oil squirt" piston cooling nozzles to keep the fire deck temperature below critical range at load.
They LOOK the same, but you cannot just start putting parts on and expect it to run properly for any length of time.
Check my post "Paging Dr. Foster", maybe you can buy enough engines to keep your truck running for a bit.
dg
The 5-ton engine also has differnt pistons, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY different "oil squirt" piston cooling nozzles to keep the fire deck temperature below critical range at load.
They LOOK the same, but you cannot just start putting parts on and expect it to run properly for any length of time.
Check my post "Paging Dr. Foster", maybe you can buy enough engines to keep your truck running for a bit.
dg
DrFoster
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I can get you a turbo kit we're working on. Bolt on for less than $1000 Add toys like Boost controllers, gauges, ect for my cost.
The current item I'm working on is a $4200 IHI turbo (for the turbo alone..) and I should have that for sale soon for $1800.
Otherwise, you can turn up the fuel on your truck a little, but you don't get a whole lot. Either way, you NEED to have a pyrometer and a boost gauge to tune properly.
Intercoolers don't help the low boosted KKK turbo on the LDT. It would loose too much pressure, and at 4-8 psi, it's hardly there anyway. Mainly it was added to keep the EGT up enough to burn all of the fuel and reduce smoke.
I'll have a air-air or water-air soon for the turbo kit too.
Hope that helps
Robert
The current item I'm working on is a $4200 IHI turbo (for the turbo alone..) and I should have that for sale soon for $1800.
Otherwise, you can turn up the fuel on your truck a little, but you don't get a whole lot. Either way, you NEED to have a pyrometer and a boost gauge to tune properly.
Intercoolers don't help the low boosted KKK turbo on the LDT. It would loose too much pressure, and at 4-8 psi, it's hardly there anyway. Mainly it was added to keep the EGT up enough to burn all of the fuel and reduce smoke.
I'll have a air-air or water-air soon for the turbo kit too.
Hope that helps
Robert
jwaller
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my intention was not to slap 5 ton injectors to my deuce but to find out exactly what my deuce should have in it. if I could put the 5T inj's in and make some extra hp then so be it but for now I wanted to get the right inj's for my motor as I've heard that the depot would just throw in whatever was laying around.G744 said:
JasonS
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A ~$1k turbo seems like a lot of money to spend on an engine which appears to be ill equipped for anything but minimal additional power. For another ~1k on top of the turbo swap cost, you could swap in a cummins or DT466????
DrFoster
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Well, you're on the right track. There are only 2 rules and 2 guidelines to making a diesel stronger:
Golden rule #1: More fuel makes more power
Golden rule #2: Better breathing combined with rule #1 makes even more...
Guidelines #'s 1 & 2: Keep EGT's low, Keep backpressure on the turbines low
Golden rule #1: More fuel makes more power
Golden rule #2: Better breathing combined with rule #1 makes even more...
Guidelines #'s 1 & 2: Keep EGT's low, Keep backpressure on the turbines low
DrFoster
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Jason, the good thing about the kit I have is that it is bolt-on. As long as your block says "TD" you don't need to worry about 15 psi and you'll net about 300 hp / 600 ft lbs. Most will want around 190-250 hp, which will run all day like that.
Otherwise, yes an engine swap... That's a HUGE nightmare if you're not equipped to do it. It also means a lot of tranny work and modifications... when it adds up, you're saving thousands
Otherwise, yes an engine swap... That's a HUGE nightmare if you're not equipped to do it. It also means a lot of tranny work and modifications... when it adds up, you're saving thousands
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Maybe not golden but definately silver rule: Start with an engine posessing a reliable bottom end.
A question: What is the highest mileage multi out there? Not just on the odo, as a lot of trucks have been done up with new engines, but rather a documented lifespan of say 100,000 miles?
Not holding my breath,
dg
A question: What is the highest mileage multi out there? Not just on the odo, as a lot of trucks have been done up with new engines, but rather a documented lifespan of say 100,000 miles?
Not holding my breath,
dg
DrFoster
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I think I had a post on here about that, and there are some out there with 50+K miles since purchased, which might be in the low 80's overall?
JasonS
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Robert, I don't have a multifuel. I had been thinking about swapping one in but have been a little leary after learning of the problems with the multifuel. I have heard about many of the failure mechanisms but I have not had a good explanation of why the multifuel does not last as long as the cummins and IHC diesels. Even in a truck with low gearing, 50k is not that great. The reo gas engine had a 100k warranty in civilian trucks.
The rod and main journals of the multifuel are roughly equivalent to the 5.9 cummins. Both have large capacity crank driven oil pumps. Both have seven main bearings. Ignoring catastrophic failures (broken cranks, blocks) what accounts for the rapid wear cycle? Poor metallurgy, design flaws, torsional vibration, etc ?
Hercules says that they still sell lots of the multifuel engines. Their salesman/ FAE says that their engine is reliable and that the only problems are when folks turn up the fuel.
I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade/ piss in anyone's cornflakes. I want to better understand the multfuel's nuances so that I can either avoid them or fix them.
The rod and main journals of the multifuel are roughly equivalent to the 5.9 cummins. Both have large capacity crank driven oil pumps. Both have seven main bearings. Ignoring catastrophic failures (broken cranks, blocks) what accounts for the rapid wear cycle? Poor metallurgy, design flaws, torsional vibration, etc ?
Hercules says that they still sell lots of the multifuel engines. Their salesman/ FAE says that their engine is reliable and that the only problems are when folks turn up the fuel.
I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade/ piss in anyone's cornflakes. I want to better understand the multfuel's nuances so that I can either avoid them or fix them.
DrFoster
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I agree completely with what you're saying. You've got to think that 50K miles isn;t good when it's a diesel, HOWEVER, think of how we drove them in the service (read: beat the living shit out of them). That MIGHT be a testament to how good they are or are not. You decide.
Either way, I think the metallurgy in the journal has something to do with it. Something else might be that it was a prototype "gas" motor converted over to diesel for deployment after testing, then they added a turbo to it without going back to the drawing board...
I'm thinking it is a solid motor for my needs. I bet you I'll get 100K + on mine, or I'll buy everyone on the website (the day it blows up) a beer. I know how hard they were driven in the serivce, and a fully rebuilt, proper motor should last long. I'm going to take the "testament to how WELL built they are" route, again, knowing how they are actually operated during the life cycle.
Either way, I think the metallurgy in the journal has something to do with it. Something else might be that it was a prototype "gas" motor converted over to diesel for deployment after testing, then they added a turbo to it without going back to the drawing board...
I'm thinking it is a solid motor for my needs. I bet you I'll get 100K + on mine, or I'll buy everyone on the website (the day it blows up) a beer. I know how hard they were driven in the serivce, and a fully rebuilt, proper motor should last long. I'm going to take the "testament to how WELL built they are" route, again, knowing how they are actually operated during the life cycle.
rdixiemiller
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Just a question, did anyone else but the military use the Herc Multifuel? I have only seen them in miltrucks and a generator or two.
I too am curious about the failure mode, I have seen quite a few with a pitched rod, have one in a parts truck right now.
I too am curious about the failure mode, I have seen quite a few with a pitched rod, have one in a parts truck right now.
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One obscure farm tractor as well. Not a raving success.
As mentioned in a previous post, I have seen over a thousand in a single yard in the Yermo (Barstow) USMC Supply Base with the center web blown out.
The argument of "beating them to pieces" causing them to fail prematurely is lame. Comparable small Diesels in everyday service last much longer even with crappy drivers and so-so maintenance. UPS, LTL's, garbage trucks, run the piss out of them and still rack up the miles.
I have a multiflop in my 5-ton tractor, and every day it runs is nice but I'll never trust it like my Macks or Detroits.
Also as mentioned in a previous post, you can't polish a turd.
dg
As mentioned in a previous post, I have seen over a thousand in a single yard in the Yermo (Barstow) USMC Supply Base with the center web blown out.
The argument of "beating them to pieces" causing them to fail prematurely is lame. Comparable small Diesels in everyday service last much longer even with crappy drivers and so-so maintenance. UPS, LTL's, garbage trucks, run the piss out of them and still rack up the miles.
I have a multiflop in my 5-ton tractor, and every day it runs is nice but I'll never trust it like my Macks or Detroits.
Also as mentioned in a previous post, you can't polish a turd.
dg
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Doc, have you calculated the required fuel delivery for your expected increase in power output? 100-200 lb/hr? The 2-1/2 tons are set up for about 60 lb/hr.
The multifuel engines were built for a service life of 20 years plus and to perform within spec at any time when called upon. I have found that mine does all that and more and I have owned/used mine for over ten years now. It was built for the full mil spec temp range too, cant say that about the replacement "deuces".
The "hypercycle" makes it a true multifuel engine as well and very efficient at that.
BTW, still waiting for your method to caclulate efficiency, Doc, since you claim that your turbo will increase the MPG's, I'd like to see how it's done.
Leaving out the pyro for the turboed engines may have been a mistake. I know from experience how easy it is to exceed 1,200F under a boost of 11-12 psi (don't know where the 4-8 psi comes from, Doc) and I havn't even turned my fuel setting up.
I added my turbo to a N/A engine and the power increase is very noticable.
I'd love to see some kind of response from someone with a standard LDT, who added a pyro to see what temps can be reached with the of-the-shelf engine under load. Not knowing the EGT could be a reason for blowing engines.
Also, shifting down at a high speed could easily overrev the engine. Many of the "problems" with the engine could be operator related.
The deuce wouldn't be a deuce without the multifuel engine.
The multifuel engines were built for a service life of 20 years plus and to perform within spec at any time when called upon. I have found that mine does all that and more and I have owned/used mine for over ten years now. It was built for the full mil spec temp range too, cant say that about the replacement "deuces".
The "hypercycle" makes it a true multifuel engine as well and very efficient at that.
BTW, still waiting for your method to caclulate efficiency, Doc, since you claim that your turbo will increase the MPG's, I'd like to see how it's done.
Leaving out the pyro for the turboed engines may have been a mistake. I know from experience how easy it is to exceed 1,200F under a boost of 11-12 psi (don't know where the 4-8 psi comes from, Doc) and I havn't even turned my fuel setting up.
I added my turbo to a N/A engine and the power increase is very noticable.
I'd love to see some kind of response from someone with a standard LDT, who added a pyro to see what temps can be reached with the of-the-shelf engine under load. Not knowing the EGT could be a reason for blowing engines.
Also, shifting down at a high speed could easily overrev the engine. Many of the "problems" with the engine could be operator related.
The deuce wouldn't be a deuce without the multifuel engine.
Desert Rat
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I concur with Bjorn. I've really abused (as many on the forum have ribbed me) my multi over 20K miles without narry a whimper from the engine (we'll skip the t-case guys!!!!). I've driven with a blown radiator hose and gotten to help without the engine blowing up on two occasions. To me this is solid evidence the engine is well engineered for combat situations. Anything us civies can throw at it is laughable. The Herc -1D I have has never let me down at all. The fuel is turned up just a little to get better acceleration to speed and no more.
I have full confidence in this engine well over the Detroit I drove when I was in Indiana. That GM P.O.S. let me down anytime it could. I hated it and got rid of it at my first chance. It spent more time in the shop than on the road for warranty repairs. I lost serious ca$h on that junk.
I posted elsewhere I'm converting 'Storm into a tractor. If the Herc couldn't handle the jobs I have for a tractor I wouldn't even think of doing the conversion. This is how much confidence I have in the multi.
Hotrodding the multi can and has been done. But when we do it it impacts the relyability of the engine. This is why I turned up the fuel within a small perameter and I doubt I will go much further.
Just my
...........................
I have full confidence in this engine well over the Detroit I drove when I was in Indiana. That GM P.O.S. let me down anytime it could. I hated it and got rid of it at my first chance. It spent more time in the shop than on the road for warranty repairs. I lost serious ca$h on that junk.
I posted elsewhere I'm converting 'Storm into a tractor. If the Herc couldn't handle the jobs I have for a tractor I wouldn't even think of doing the conversion. This is how much confidence I have in the multi.
Hotrodding the multi can and has been done. But when we do it it impacts the relyability of the engine. This is why I turned up the fuel within a small perameter and I doubt I will go much further.
Just my
...........................
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My thinking of theis is highway speeds and the resultant RPM (around 2700) is where the crank harmonics come into play causing the failures.
Perhaps the trick might be to regovern the high idle to no more than 2100, and reset the fuel timing and boost (higher pressure, re-mapped, & intercooled) to maximum torque somewhere around 1800. Essentially one would be making it conform more like a larger engine in road service.
This would require the addition of a taller overdrive, but the HP/torque figures would greatly improve and it might just go on forever.
Every catastrophic multifuel engine failure I've personally witnessed or had described to me has been at highway speeds.
Desert Rat: "I have full confidence in this engine well over the Detroit I drove when I was in Indiana. That GM P.O.S. let me down anytime it could. I hated it and got rid of it at my first chance. It spent more time in the shop than on the road for warranty repairs. I lost serious ca$h on that junk."
What series Detroit are we referring to? Just curious.
dg
Perhaps the trick might be to regovern the high idle to no more than 2100, and reset the fuel timing and boost (higher pressure, re-mapped, & intercooled) to maximum torque somewhere around 1800. Essentially one would be making it conform more like a larger engine in road service.
This would require the addition of a taller overdrive, but the HP/torque figures would greatly improve and it might just go on forever.
Every catastrophic multifuel engine failure I've personally witnessed or had described to me has been at highway speeds.
Desert Rat: "I have full confidence in this engine well over the Detroit I drove when I was in Indiana. That GM P.O.S. let me down anytime it could. I hated it and got rid of it at my first chance. It spent more time in the shop than on the road for warranty repairs. I lost serious ca$h on that junk."
What series Detroit are we referring to? Just curious.
dg
Desert Rat
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60 series. I can't stand them. They were supposed to be "revolutionary". It sure felt like the only revolutions they made were mostly by hand to figure out what went wrong. I had it for 14 months and only got 95K miles out of it. I just couldn't afford it sitting in the shop and not making miles and money.