24 volt "Ford" type remote starter solenoid

[edpdx]

Have been looking for answers to my starter problem and ran across the articles on installing a solenoid on the firewall to fire the starter.

Seem there is a simple way to jump the "s" post to the Battery post on the solenoid then put the Ford type solenoid on the firewall- like Ford, splicing it into the cable that runs to the solenoid on the starter:



Would this be beneficial in terms of extending the life of the solenoid on the starter- that I seem to be going thru waaay too fast? I was thinking it might because the juice is running directly to the solenoid and the internal "S" button won't be building up carbon or whatever since this step happens at the remote "Ford" solenoid. And... even if the burn out of the solenoid happens to the remote solenoid instead, at least it can easily be changed in the field and replacements are cheap.

Come on all you electrical gurus would this be practical? Useful? Would it work?

 

[G-Force]

I would think you would probably make it worse for yourself if you ran the 24volt plus through a remote solenoid like that and then to the starrter. Every connection will give you a voltage drop across it and eventually your resistance would get higher over the remote solenoid and this would cause the solenoid on the starter to try and draw more to make up for the voltage loss, eventually burning out the remote solenoid. It sounds like you have a bad ground or connection causing high resistance which in turn will cause the life expectancy of your starter solenoid to be shortened. Check your grounds.

 

[R Racing]

I don't see why it wouldn't work ? as long as the purple wire is 12V

 

[dstang97]

My best advise to you. I have fixed 4 nightmare cucv"s each one was non factory. Do not re-engineer the wheel. Leave it stock oem wiring with dh relay. Then get a oem starter and be done with it. I don't care what anyone says you can only run a oem starter in a cucv and be 100% reliable.

 

[epartsman]

Just as a warning from Someone who works at a Ford dealership and personally had a runaway starter in Lincoln Towncar I owned : Do not try it. Ford starter relays under a high draw fuse. It is a floating copper washer that will eventually fuse. I agree with dstang up to a point. The original OEM starter in my opinion should be changed out to a high torque GM or otherwise with the correct support bracket and shims. I am currently using a chinese built high torgue from DB electric that has had no issues in 8 months with each start being clean and crisp. Do you have an leak that is dripping on your starter? Just a little intrustion will mess one up. You can get a used high torque, new one from DB ($10 or if budget is an issue rebuild your old one and make sure there are no oil leaks over it and it is properly seated with new bolts, correct bracket, and shims if necessary.

 

[edpdx]

G, I have checked the grounds. In fact I added another grounf from the starter to the chassis. I know there is a problem with the system the way it is now; but I have looked at most every inch of the wire involved as well as all the components on the circuit, to include:

4 24 volt starters 2. chin and 2 WIlson
new ignition switch
4 relays ala doghead
1 neutral safety switch
new GP Card
new sections of wire
new connectors
new batteries
new lugs

I have fooled around with it so much, if it were a girl, I'd have a shotgun forcing me toward the altar. I am not, repeat not, hot to make changes away from stock. But I seriously cannot keep driving a vehicle around that breaks down for unknown reasons. This starting issue is all over the forum, I am not alone. Many have reported, as I have, the problems. Most have reported resolving it, as I have. Many have reported it reoccurring, as I have. The TM is helpful to a degree; but I always end up on the same line: Replace Starter.

My comrades here are helpful and I appreciate it without end for if there was no support here I and I suspect others, would be driving some pretty inventive FrankCUCVs. So if this remote will work- even if it means it burning out instead of the one on the starter, I'd much rather replace it while working vertically, than having to go supine to remove the whole starter every few months. Further, would the resistance be that different? I owned a galaxy and an I-Beam pick-up that started every time- never replaced a solenoid on them?!?

My question is: WIll this configuration alleviate the problem of the on-board solenoid burning out so frequently? This question assumes other pertinent systems are in check: Sound Battery, cables/lugs/. Good grounds, and functional Glow plugs?

 

[edpdx]

eparsman, by hi torque do you mean Direct Drive? Because that is what I am getting from Dstang97- going back to the Direct Drive 24volt MT27. Do you have a specific Starter number?

I have right now a Wilson that is heavy duty, Gear Reduction built like a brick outhouse. It is my second one, why is the Chinese one from DB gonna be better?

 

[epartsman]

Is the starter grinding? Having a hard time engaging the flywheel? If the starter is binding due to poor alignment or bad teeth it will burn up the solenoid. I have replaced many of those Ford solenoids in my 48 years. 27 years at Mike Shad Ford. In my 09 I replaced FW, Starter, Bolts, Bracket, Shimmed properly, Sealed up my oil pan where it was spewing on the starter and have had 8 months of bliss. If you think about it this way as long as the starter has 24V, Ground, and Solenoid trigger wire power it will engage unless there is a mechanical issue internal to the starter causing a draw which in turn frys your solenoid. If your starters are having a hard time turning it over your issue may not be electrical. Just food for thought.

 

[epartsman]

The 27MT was the original. A good starter for its time untill Automanufacturers figured out that a high torgue (gear reduction) starter used less power to turn over an engine. They are also smaller in diameter. Ever listen to a Humvee start or late model diesel start? That is the difference. A quicker more solid turn using less power.

 

[edpdx]

eparsrman, thanks, I bow to your Ford Expertise. I have inspected the Flexplate while replaceing the starter. There is no leak what-so-ever. I have noticed on two starters that failed so far:

1. Starter throw-out gear engaged the flexplate; but only the shaft was spinning. It had worked flawlessly for 4 months or so until it just spun up like a runaway. American Rebuilt by Wilson- replaced for free under warranty.
2. Present Caltrics Chinese rebuild: When I pulled it out- it did not spin in the truck at all, I clamped it to the brushguar so it would not jump around when juice was applied to it and powere it with a jumper cable (12v and 24v) the starter would spin; but the starter gear would not move out to "engage" the starter (out of vehicle).

Could these be signs of binding in the flexplate somehow?

 

[epartsman]

Since they are both experiencing the same issue you may be onto to something, Have you checked FW run out? Get it running and watch it to see if it moves back and forth.

 

[epartsman]

Did you shim any of your replacement starters? Did you replace the starter bolts? Does your starter have the rear support bracket?

 

[dstang97]

I would put my fresh rebuilt dd starter up against any gear reduction out there. I know that it was rebuilt using good quality replacement parts. Just saying. New technology is not always better.

 

[epartsman]

dstang how could twice the force with only 1/2 the power consumption not be better? In the Ford world since the changeover we only sell about a 1/4 of the starters we used to.
I am old school too but where would we be without Doghead, Cucv Electric, and the others whose upgrades keep our awesome old machines running.
My advise, take it or leave it. Hope you get it worked out.

 

[dstang97]

dstang how could twice the force with only 1/2 the power consumption not be better?

My starter was built with pride in America with a no question warrenty.
You starter was built with no quality control by 10 year olds.

A proper working oem starter whips the motor over better than any other vehicle I have ever had. (close to 40 vehicles)

Do some research on the problems with aftermarket starters. There is usually one every week.

 

[wallew]

Several minor things have NOT been touched on

1) STARTER BOLTS - you ARE USING NEW OEM STARTER BOLTS, right? - they stretch when tightened down to spec with a torque wrench

2) Battery Cables - you HAVE replaced all of them, right? - old ones can be broken or corroded on the INSIDE and you will never get enough electricity to spin ANY starter fast enough to start the engine consistently

3) Flex Plate - if it's cracked, you will NEVER get consistent starts - ever - ask me HOW I know - THE ONLY WAY TO CHECK IT is to pull the tranny - though I guess you could just pull the lower inspection plate, but just looking at it won't guarantee you will SEE the cracks - mine were not noticeable until after it was off - once in my hands and I put a slight twisting motion on it the THREE SPLITS IN THE FLEX PLATE WERE OBVIOUS

if you can NOT SAY WITH CERTAINTY that all of these are in tip top shape, you will most likely continue to have starting problems

that's been MY EXPERIENCES

 

[ryan77]

Any one ever use a Hummer starter in a Cucv?

 

[dstang97]

Any one ever use a Hummer starter in a Cucv?

They are different. I think the solenoid is offset because of frame rails. If you put them side by side you will see the difference. I believe they will not physically fit.

 

[ryan77]

They are different. I think the solenoid is offset because of frame rails. If you put them side by side you will see the difference. I believe they will not physically fit.

I didnt think of that!! Good to know!!!

 

[Matt65]

I don't think the solution you have proposed will achieve the results you want. On the other hand... I don't consider myself an Electrical Guru. The first time somebody told me to put a lawnmower* relay on my truck I laughed. Why? Because on the surface it sounds like a bad idea. With time I learned that it's indeed a lifesaver to these trucks. A solid, inexpensive, readily available fix to an insanely widespread problem. If you really want to give it a try, I say go for it! Be safe, and try not to break anything!

There seems to have been a huge surge of starter related problems in the past month or so. Anyone have ideas why?

My starter was built with pride in America with a no question warrenty.
Your starter was built with no quality control by 10 year olds.

I've mentioned my results with the DB starter, so I won't do it again. I had no idea 10 year old kids built them.

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/cucv/85136-starter-disengages-after-2-seconds.html#post1091589

Be sure to measure your gear clearances between the Flexplate and Starter in several locations around the flexplate. Based on measurements you may find that even with the "No Shim" stamped starter, a shim will be needed to achieve correct gear engagement. I added a half outer shim to the outer (closer to Passenger door) starter bolt to move the starter gear closer. Adding shim to the inside, or both bolts will move the starter gear awat. Use the least amount of thickness possible. Be aware that in rare cases the crank itself could be walking, or the flexplate could be bent. Confirm the correct starter brace, clean mating surfaces, use brake cleaner in the starter bolt threads, and GM starter bolts @ correct Tq. Don't use locktite. Reconfirm Tq monthly at minimum until you see that you not losing bolt Tq vs time.

The alignment for these engines is very important because of the high compression, and a direct drive starter. The mfg variation from one engine/starter/flex plate combination to another is too great.

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/cucv/84701-starters-going-out.html

TM 9-2320-289-20
4-5. STARTER AND STARTER RELAY REPLACEMENT (Con’t).
NOTE
Starter pinion tooth-to-flywheel clearance may be measured using a wire
gage.
4. Remove 6 bolts (25) and access
cover (27) from transmission housing
(26) . Measure clearance between
starter pinion (24) tooth and flywheel
(23). Clearance should be 0.02 in. to
0.06 in. (0.50 mm to 1.50 mm). Add
shims (10) as required. Install access​

cover (27) with 6 bolts.