3D Printed Seal Driver

[WhoMe08721]

That price is crazy for them. At a 100% infill that part would only cost $10.00. The brass threaded inserts could only cost $10.00 too at most. For that price you can buy a Creality Ender 3 3D Printer when there on sale and make your own and so much more.

 

[Awesomeness]

That price is crazy for them. At a 100% infill that part would only cost $10.00. The brass threaded inserts could only cost $10.00 too at most. For that price you can buy a Creality Ender 3 3D Printer when there on sale and make your own and so much more.

For me, I've calculated that 3D prints cost me about $2/hr to make (on hobbyist level 3D printers), including typical filaments, but not including design time, extra hardware (e.g. threaded inserts, fasteners, etc.), or if I have to remove a ton of supports.

Making quality designs takes a lot of time and money.

1. There are many hours spent designing, prototyping, testing, refining designs, etc., then the associated costs of those prototype materials (e.g. printing several iterations).
2. You often have to buy items (e.g. mirrors, seals, etc.) so that you can measure them accurately and check fit.
3. The cost of discarding or reworking parts that don't meet quality standards.
4. Then you have to buy the printer, absorb the learning curve labor of the printer, account for the mainenance/lifespan of the printer, etc.
5. If you need Helicoil tools, or other special tools, those often cost hundreds of dollars (e.g. $144 tapping threaded insert installer, $322 Helicoil installer, etc.)
6. You need to account for packaging costs (e.g. printer toner to print manuals, cardboard boxes, packing tape, labels, bubble wrap, plastic zipper bags for fasteners, etc.).

So yes, it takes $20 of materials to make that part, but labor, extras, and $1000 (?) of equipment too, so you don't get it for $20. Many may seem silly (e.g. "Who cares about a $0.10 label, a $1 box, or some Windex sprayed on the bed of the printer?"), but I go through hundreds of dollars of this kind of stuff per month.

 

[Bulldogger]

For me, I've calculated that 3D prints cost me about $2/hr to make (on hobbyist level 3D printers), including typical filaments, but not including design time, extra hardware (e.g. threaded inserts, fasteners, etc.), or if I have to remove a ton of supports.

Making quality designs takes a lot of time and money.

1. There are many hours spent designing, prototyping, testing, refining designs, etc., then the associated costs of those prototype materials (e.g. printing several iterations).
2. You often have to buy items (e.g. mirrors, seals, etc.) so that you can measure them accurately and check fit.
3. The cost of discarding or reworking parts that don't meet quality standards.
4. Then you have to buy the printer, absorb the learning curve labor of the printer, account for the mainenance/lifespan of the printer, etc.
5. If you need Helicoil tools, or other special tools, those often cost hundreds of dollars (e.g. $144 tapping threaded insert installer, $322 Helicoil installer, etc.)
6. You need to account for packaging costs (e.g. printer toner to print manuals, cardboard boxes, packing tape, labels, bubble wrap, plastic zipper bags for fasteners, etc.).

So yes, it takes $20 of materials to make that part, but labor, extras, and $1000 (?) of equipment too, so you don't get it for $20. Many may seem silly (e.g. "Who cares about a $0.10 label, a $1 box, or some Windex sprayed on the bed of the printer?"), but I go through hundreds of dollars of this kind of stuff per month.

Excellent observations. My own experiences corroborate these costs and figures. Still, I enjoy this problem solving, and for me there is plenty of learning going on, which I value for the inspiration and challenges it presents.

I expect even if I focused on additive manufacturing and ran my printer hard, it would never pay for itself as a hobby interest. But I will keep at it, because I enjoy it.

BDGR

 

[phuriousgeorge]

I've finally found some down time to work on my truck over the holidays. It's had a flat and some other things I've been gathering parts for, just to pull the tire off and find oil in the CTIS valve assy. I've already gathered all the seals I'd need for a rebuild, but found I was missing a few necessary installation tools and the 3 7/8" socket. I jumped when I saw the 1st topic, as I'm a 3d printing fan for useful items like this myself.

Saddened to get to the end of this thread from a later thread just to find out we could bicker about who knows what about 3d design, but not share CAD/STL files or offer to sell them. I suppose I can model one myself as well, but was hoping to stand on the shoulders of those that have gone before & already refined a working tool, rather than starting from scratch.

 

[Floridianson]

I suppose I can model one myself as well, but was hoping to stand on the shoulders of those that have gone before & already refined a working tool, rather than starting from scratch.

Well as we found out you don't really need any special tools to install the ctis seals or the inner hub seal. The inner hub seal can be installed with a hammer and a piece of 2x4 or just a hammer. If you've got one of the seals you'll see it has an outer lip where a lot of other trucks the inner hub seal you have to have the installing tool because there's no lip on the seal. Sometimes on the other trucks the seal installing tool has that inner round ring which holds the seal in place while you install the seal. This is because sometimes we remove the tire/ wheel and hub in one shot using a wheel dolly. Then we install the seal while all that is on the wheel dolly and we're installing it with the tool horizontally. My MTV after removing the wheel the drum I took the hub off and laid it flat on the ground so I was replacing the seal tool vertically. As someone else said just the right size socket you can do the ctis seals.

 

[Floridianson]

Don't mean to discourage anybody from printing a seal driver. It just doesn't need to be printed to the specs that are in the TM's. Just make the base flat without the inner lip that holds the seal. Make it either the same size as the seal in diameter or even larger. And then beef up the edges as it doesn't need to be tapered. The best I can describe it would be a real thick disk looking base with a handle. I bought the seal installing tool online before I even did the seals or even saw what they look like and so how easy they are to install.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Yup. Don't need any seal drivers. This is an Army truck not a Space Shuttle. Whack it in with a hammer and be done with it. CTIS seals can be installed with a large flat blade screwdriver - just keep to the edge of the seal so you don't damage it.

I've done enough 3D printing to have put several boxes of 9mm through an FGC-9 so I get the appeal. But it's a waste of effort for this application.

 

[phuriousgeorge]

Well as we found out you don't really need any special tools to install the ctis seals or the inner hub seal.

Fair enough. I just want to ensure I'm doing the job correctly so I don't have to tear it apart again any time soon because I didn't press something in all the way, got it off-camber, etc.

This is an Army truck not a Space Shuttle.

So true, but I can't help but let my engineering side out when approaching problems (and I support products & production for both the Army and NASA so... )

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Fair enough. I just want to ensure I'm doing the job correctly so I don't have to tear it apart again any time soon because I didn't press something in all the way, got it off-camber, etc.

So true, but I can't help but let my engineering side out when approaching problems (and I support products & production for both the Army and NASA so... )

What you need to pay attention to is lifting the heavy hub onto the spindle so you don't cut any of the seals. If you really want to play engineering then design a fixture for holding the hub and centering it on the spindle as it's being installed.

I've seen lots of 18 year old kids do this job and without fail the part they screw up is not installing the seals - it's lifting the hub onto the spindle - invariably they damage one or more CTIS seals because they underestimate the weight of the hub and don't know how to properly hold it and center it.

Installing the seals is easy and despite the desire of the engineers to make special tools - most of the time they will not be available in the field and us mechanics are real good at making due with what we have. Sockets, sections of pipe, or just a punch and a keen eye.

Engineering is fine but use it where it's needed - don't waste it on already solved problems.

 

[Awesomeness]

The seal drivers are nice, and help the job go smoother, with less chance of messing up the seals. Most of the strong opinions against things being over-engineered come from not understanding why it was done.

The 3D printed drivers work pretty well. They take too long to print to be worth selling, especially since you don't need to use them frequently.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

The seal drivers are nice, and help the job go smoother, with less chance of messing up the seals. Most of the strong opinions against things being over-engineered come from not understanding why it was done.

The only time I've seen a seal messed up is from improper installation of the hub onto the spindle. And usually they have no idea till it's in operation. Seal driver won't help with that.

Not opposed to them - but if it's more than arms reach away I'm not going to bother for this application. It's just another thing to find a place to store that's going to be used once every couple years.

Again - great idea in principle. Not particularly useful in practice. Typical engineering over-thinking. No one is going to bother looking for it, 80% of techs don't know they have it ( 75% don't have it at all), and 95% of the techs have done this job a dozen or five dozen times successfully without it so they don't care.

 

[Floridianson]

What you need to pay attention to is lifting the heavy hub onto the spindle so you don't cut any of the seals. If you really want to play engineering then design a fixture for holding the hub and centering it on the spindle as it's being installed. Quote.
Yep that's where seal damage is done on install of the hub. Done plenty of wheel seals on commercial over the road trucks. What I do is I have the outer bearing ready to go right next to me. As soon as there's enough spindle sticking out of the hub I install the outer bearing and nut. Then I used the nut to run up the hub till the inner bearing and seal are completely seated. I could not do this on my MTV as the spindle was not long enough. I just use some blue tape over the threads of the spindle and was real careful when it comes time to seat the seal. I just sold my wheel dolly and the shop I ran had one. Makes your job a lot quicker and less prone to seal damage.

 

[Awesomeness]

Again - great idea in principle. Not particularly useful in practice. Typical engineering over-thinking. No one is going to bother looking for it, 80% of techs don't know they have it ( 75% don't have it at all), and 95% of the techs have done this job a dozen or five dozen times successfully without it so they don't care.

And you're giving us a glimpse of "typical mechanic underthinking". The irony is that because you don't want to think about it very hard, you're not even imagining that there is any good reason engineers would make these seal drivers, and you assume it must just be that they were bored and made another tool you don't need.

The opposite is probably true. They probably have tons of data from the seal manufacturers, and conducted long-term studies of seal replacements/failures by maintenance teams that use and don't use the drivers, and can see that using the drivers decreases failures by XX%. Automotive engineering, as a whole discipline, is absolutely "down in the weeds" like this in recent decades, squeezing every little bit of life and reliability out of every single component... and look how much higher performance and reliable newer generations of vehicles are.

 

[aw113sgte]

And you're giving us a glimpse of "typical mechanic underthinking". The irony is that because you don't want to think about it very hard, you're not even imagining that there is any good reason engineers would make these seal drivers, and you assume it must just be that they were bored and made another tool you don't need.

The opposite is probably true. They probably have tons of data from the seal manufacturers, and conducted long-term studies of seal replacements/failures by maintenance teams that use and don't use the drivers, and can see that using the drivers decreases failures by XX%. Automotive engineering, as a whole discipline, is absolutely "down in the weeds" like this in recent decades, squeezing every little bit of life and reliability out of every single component... and look how much higher performance and reliable newer generations of vehicles are.

I do this stuff for a living and you both make valid arguments. While this is not the space shuttle, we also lost a space shuttle because tech level people thought engineers were over thinking stuff.
The truth is somewhere in the middle.
I was just speccing seals for an autoclave test chamber, I had about 15 different material options just from one manufacturer, then there are all the seal spring types, materials, lip designs, etc. literally 10s of thousands of combinations.
I chose to install my seals with a a screwdriver, however took special care in the method. Walking around the perimeter, using only body weight, and ensuring the seal never plastically deformed.
Many ways to skin the cat, a seal driver is the easy method of inexperienced people, although can still be messed up