5ton trucks for wildfire watertender service

[steelcaptain]

so it has come to my knowledge that the US Forest Service contracts for privately owned trucks during the summer to carry water for crews fighting wildfires here in the west and what I am hoping to find out is if anyone here got their 5ton in this program as they would seem to me to be an excellent platform to fit a tank onto. A class 1 water tender is one which carries 3500 or more gallons which would be 28k# so pushing the springs on any 5ton truck but aren't the axles rated for 20k# each

mind you my M54A2 used to be a watertender when it was at the Whatcom County Fire District 14 so that is where I might well want to go back to use the truck for.

 

[74M35A2]

Water is 8.3lbs/gallon. 5 ton truck is rated for 10 tons on-road. From a numbers perspective, that means you could haul 2400 gallons of water, minus the mass of the container in the bed, if you stayed on road (not sure how that is defined, what does a dirt road count as?). Sure it will do more, but once you are for profit, it means insurance, CDL, and all those logistics, so if you exceeded and something happened, you'd be on the hook, and possibly even from a personal perspective if you didn't set it up properly as an LLC (study case of "piercing the corporate vail", of which the fastest way is by depositing the $ directly into your personal bank account). Don't take it the wrong way, it can be done, and as a small business owner I encourage everybody to try it, but when going into business, you have to assume everybody is awaiting the chance to sit home and have you fund their monthly income and retirement, so you can't give them even a single thread to pull on. The trucks are also rated to pull 15,000lbs or so, not sure if that is combined with the bed payload or independent, but you could tag some more on that way, maybe.

 

[wcuhillbilly]

looked into this about a year ago and found I didnt have the time or the money to play the contractor game. As a wildland FF I would somewhat have the inside, but the red tape of gov/state contracts is painful to say the least. A local company here in the hills is Bill Paulton- Paulton Ent, in Blackhawk SD, 605-673-4641 I spoke with him on the Cold Brook fire in Hot springs SD last year. His crew was running a Kenworth with double lockers and a tank. they were the contract fire fighter tender unit. He told me that they got into hauling water for the ranch and once they got a truck to do so, tryed to figured out a way to make it pay for itself. Thus being local firefighters with the local VFD they looked into contracting regionally. They had to provide a crew with each truck, Firefighter 2 qualified if they were anywhere near the line. Each truck had to DOT, (in our case that means squeeky clean with added lights for clearnance and running) and physicals etc for the DOT number. not to mention the insurance. THen sit back and hope you get on the "list" which gets called only when the Fed and State/ VFD resources are exhausted.
Not to be the debby downer,,, but our trucks cant meet road speed empty, much less loaded. Knowing what I know now, I would look for a Pete/Frieghtliner, KW etc and put a tank on it to start with. More $ up front, but you can re coop your $ faster safer then go toy with the MV on the side. If you did go with the MV I would look for a M921 (dont hold me to the 921- I mean the 10 ton tractor type or remove the dump bed) as this would give you air brakes, air suspension and the creature comforts to get you 3 hours down the road to the location hauling a heavy load of water...
THese resources are usually called up by a resource center located in another state who have no idea where or who you are.. just whats on the paper in front of them... if you decline a call a couple times,,, the dispatcher will soon put you on the bottom of the list just because they dont want to bother calling you just to be declined.

Wyoming has alot of 5 tons that are state owned and used by the countys.. If you really want to try this,,, look at pickin one up on auction. The state DOT actually has a class put on once every 2 years in Cheyenne by a state DOT mechanic for the firefighters who operate and run these trucks...

 

[steelcaptain]

so here is a question I cannot find the answers to anywhere but what is the highest legal gross vehicle weight a 5ton chassis can be rated for? If all axles are rated at 20k# would the truck not be legally able for a 60k# gvw which would mean a payload of 38k# (60k# gvw -22k# scale weight)?

 

[wcuhillbilly]

The placard on the dash is likely what the trooper will use against you with the weight shown on the portable scales as directly related to his ticket book. My 816 weighs 19 tons or 36k lbs. Dragging my dozer that number is around 60k. My cdl and insurance, and tags are legal at that weight, but i now have a resposibility to be able to control that weight safely and reasonably. If the placard says 10 tons, the trooper will add truck weight to 20k or 10 tons and then look at his scales. Differance means ticket or no ticket. Please dont push the envelope, we who try to make a living or side business with these trucks are already on thin ice with the DOT and insurance companies

 

[quickfarms]

so here is a question I cannot find the answers to anywhere but what is the highest legal gross vehicle weight a 5ton chassis can be rated for? If all axles are rated at 20k# would the truck not be legally able for a 60k# gvw which would mean a payload of 38k# (60k# gvw -22k# scale weight)?

Your question shows you need to read up on the bridge law or get a cdl.

Steer axle is allowed to be 12,000 lbs

Drive axle is 20,000 lbs for a single or 34,000 for tandem. They need to be spaced at least 12 feet to get the 20,000 per axle.

You can go heavier with permits but you can not exceed the weight rating if the tires.

Another problem you will have is balancing the load.

If you put a 5 ton along side a civilian heavy spec truck you will realize that they are not that heavy duty.

They do make good off-road water trucks. The key being off-road.

Most of the water tenders around here are actually street legal water trucks using a commercial chassis.

 

[steelcaptain]

Your question shows you need to read up on the bridge law or get a cdl.

Steer axle is allowed to be 12,000 lbs

Drive axle is 20,000 lbs for a single or 34,000 for tandem. They need to be spaced at least 12 feet to get the 20,000 per axle.

really, a front axle on a 5ton is only rated at 12k# even though it is also a driving axle?

 

[quickfarms]

really, a front axle on a 5ton is only rated at 12k# even though it is also a driving axle?

Yes it is in the bridge law

I have a truck here with a 17,000 lbs front axle but I am limited to 12,000 lbs by the law.

The steering knuckles weaken the axle.

A steering axle typically has half the tires of a drive axle that decreases its capacity and footprint area.

Super singles are an animal of there own. In the civilian world they are losing favor. They would not be a good idea on a tender do to the lack of redundancy

 

[74M35A2]

We are not trying to talk you out of this. We are trying to make sure you know what you are getting into, before you do so. Good lessons from a few that have actually done it or tried. It is a lot less expensive to do it that way rather than trial by fire. I hope you can do it, and make money at it. Just be sure to cover your bases. I think once you do your homework, you'll see you won't be able to carry as much water as you initially thought, but you still should be able to. Then, the question will become, after getting compliant, is it actually worth it? Hope so, best wishes.

 

[MWMULES]

These guys have been doing tanker and brush rigs for years. http://www.roscommonequipmentcenter.com/basic calculator truck chassis.html

 

[steelcaptain]

can anyone comment on this 5ton for sale in California?



I see they say that the axles have been recertified to higher weight rating and that the entire truck is now at 45k# total gvw. What does this entail to accomplish?

My M54A2 has a gvw of 39800# so minus the 19k# scale weight leaves right at 20k# for payload which would be right at 2400gallons (which is less than a class I water tender requirements but does meet class II). If I could get my M54 to 45k# though that would allow me at just under 600gal more to carry

 

[Hard Head]

Numbers Will Not Vary
Although payload determination may vary by manufacturer, the GVWR and GAWR (gross axle weight rating) on the certification label are standardized and absolute. Only the manufacturer — or an upfitter that started with an incomplete vehicle — can set the GVWR. There’s no wiggle room or fudge factor here; the rating exists because above it, things can and will break. Also many axles are rated twice the capacity of the tire load capacity.

Food for thought!

 

[quickfarms]

can anyone comment on this 5ton for sale in California?

View attachment 603186

I see they say that the axles have been recertified to higher weight rating and that the entire truck is now at 45k# total gvw. What does this entail to accomplish?

My M54A2 has a gvw of 39800# so minus the 19k# scale weight leaves right at 20k# for payload which would be right at 2400gallons (which is less than a class I water tender requirements but does meet class II). If I could get my M54 to 45k# though that would allow me at just under 600gal more to carry

The truck has a 10 speed allison?

The cold blowing ac indicates that they have done a lot of work to the truck.

To change the weight they may have changed both rear axles and the rear suspension, they may have also doubled the frame and added additional cross members.

There is a company out here that used to remanufacture military trucks into water trucks. They changed a lot stuff on the trucks. They used to add tilt hoods and Fiberglas roofs to the old 800 series 5 tons.

 

[JohnnyBM931A2]

The truck has a 10 speed allison?

The cold blowing ac indicates that they have done a lot of work to the truck.

To change the weight they may have changed both rear axles and the rear suspension, they may have also doubled the frame and added additional cross members.

There is a company out here that used to remanufacture military trucks into water trucks. They changed a lot stuff on the trucks. They used to add tilt hoods and Fiberglas roofs to the old 800 series 5 tons.

Could have also started life as an M934. Those came with double frames, correct?

 

[steelcaptain]

maybe someone can confirm at all M923 series do not "officially" have the payload rating for 10tons onroad? that they have simply a single payload rating for only 5tons? does anyone have an official gvw for any of that series?

 

[steelcaptain]

There is a company out here that used to remanufacture military trucks into water trucks. They changed a lot stuff on the trucks. They used to add tilt hoods and Fiberglas roofs to the old 800 series 5 tons.

is this one one of those?



if it is, that is one fugly truck!

 

[quickfarms]

is this one one of those?

View attachment 603213

if it is, that is one fugly truck!

That truck looks like it has an international cab and hood on it.

There is not enough information to know who built it

 

[quickfarms]

maybe someone can confirm at all M923 series do not "officially" have the payload rating for 10tons onroad? that they have simply a single payload rating for only 5tons? does anyone have an official gvw for any of that series?

The data plate on the dash lists the the load at 5 ton. Since this plate also contains the vin it would be illegal to alter it

 

[steelcaptain]

The data plate on the dash lists the the load at 5 ton. Since this plate also contains the vin it would be illegal to alter it

This confirms what I have read...the data plate in my M54 shows both the 10000 and 20000 pound payloads for off and on road service respectively

this pretty much knocks out all M939 series trucks from carrying more than 1200gallons of water. Way better to use an M39 or M813 series with the higher weight rating

 

[steelcaptain]

just fyi but I have spoken with the owner of the M925 in the first ad I posted and what he told me is that the truck has not been modified to get the higher gvw rating. Rather he mentioned a company in Sacramento which legally can uprate these trucks to the higher rating albeit at a cost which he wouldn't disclose.

interesting